Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

I just want to share my research.

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/ka...rtial-art.html

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/kr...and-kalis.html

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/ka...rtial-art.html

[Rick]

Welcome to the forums .

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting thoughts, barganing balyan.

I most particularly find your second link to be of great interest.

Principally because you have used a photograph that I produced and which appears in my site. The photograph is one of a ploncon containing some keris from my personal collection.

Moreover, you have used this photograph without first obtaining my permission to use it.

barganing balyan, please let me assure you that I have no objection to your use of this photograph, and you may continue to use it in the article that already contains it.

However, I would very much appreciate it if in future you wish to use any of my photographs, you would first pay me the courtesy of asking if you may use them.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting thoughts, barganing balyan.

I most particularly find your second link to be of great interest.

Principally because you have used a photograph that I produced and which appears in my site. The photograph is one of a ploncon containing some keris from my personal collection.

Moreover, you have used this photograph without first obtaining my permission to use it.

barganing balyan, please let me assure you that I have no objection to your use of this photograph, and you may continue to use it in the article that already contains it.

However, I would very much appreciate it if in future you wish to use any of my photographs, you would first pay me the courtesy of asking if you may use them.

Thanks and sorry. I wrote in my blog that i used online materials. had it not been a blog, i would make footnotes and bibliography-- for strict academic purpose.

I have a problem though. I belong to a group called mandaya in the philippines. I seldom see authentic traditional weapons nowadays. I would like to suggest that, for the sake of cultural preservation, you would sha2re your ethnographic materials and photos for non-profit cultural work to anyone interested.

Thanks a lot.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Thanks and sorry. I wrote in my blog that i used online materials. had it not been a blog, i would make footnotes and bibliography-- for strict academic purpose.

I have a problem though. I belong to a group called mandaya in the philippines. I seldom see authentic traditional weapons nowadays. I would like to suggest that, for the sake of cultural preservation, you would sha2re your ethnographic materials and photos for non-profit cultural work to anyone interested.

Thanks a lot.

Welcome!

Take a spin through our archives--I think you'll be pleased to see how free we are with our ethnographic materials and photos.

Here's a link to a museum exhibition in Macau some of our members contributed to that you may find interesting:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/message.htm

[Battara]

Mabuhay! We have discussed Mandaya weaponry several times on this forum - please use "mandaya" in the search engine on this forum.


Mabuting Kapilaran!

[Nonoy Tan]

Interesting and fine work you are doing, Baganing_balyan. I hope to see your work grow.

maraming salamat po!

[baganing_balyan]

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

[A. G. Maisey]

I will not buy into a discussion involving keris + kalis, however, there is now no doubt at all that the Javanese keris is of uniquely Javanese origin, from Indian souces.

From Jawa the keris spread into other parts of S.E. Asia, and in these other places developed its own character. In some instances it probably maintained a form closer to its origins than the developed form of the Javanese keris.

Of course the keris is not of Malay origin.

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

Mabuhay,

I hope to see your further writings in this regards, and also your references to back it up. It's enlightening to read your articles, but at the same time it makes me wonder from where you get the sources to come to your conclusion. Anyway, I admire your works..... in fact I admire all works as far as kris / keris are concerned.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

[baganing_balyan]

Although my interest is primarily about kalis or mindanaoan kris, I have found interesting etymologies and folklore that point the very origin of kris back to the temples of southern and northern India.

A malaysian website has accused me of assuming without bases. That's not really the case.

for instance: when I said naga (snake) sword orginally evolved from nair malabar. I analyzed the sanskrit etymology of naga, nagar, nayar, and nair. I also checked the snake-based belief system of the nayar or nair people. I also went back to Mahabharata, a hindu epic, to check the relationship between garuda, the bird-man, and the nagas, the snake people.

I did not include them in my blog since there is no obvious philippine connection.

nayar or nair people believe in snake gods. nagar or naga (snake) came from that belief system and from the folklore of those believers.

the nayars and nairs belong to a higher cast-- probably Brahmin since nayar is also related to temple-- thus, nair malabar, the temple sword.

Buddhists too have a concept of naga-- power and protection. There are images of buddha hovered by cobras or serpents.

Any place reached by Buddhism, there is a concept and image of naga-- thailand, cambodia, vietnam, indonesia, malaysia, but not philippines. There is no known pre-spanish buddhist account in the philippines. that's the reason why the handles of mindanaon krises are different-- no indo-buddhist handles depicting garuda or naga.

People ask me for bibliography, i am writing a blog not a paper. My only hope is to produce a seminal idea that will hopefully challenge researchers all over who have access and resources to expound more.

I use Mahabaratha and ramayana for instance to understand Indian folklore. Do i need to write even the name of the translator? I don't think so. I expect though for anyone interested to check the epics. They can even be read online.

I just don't understand why I often read that kris is not of malay origin but of javanese. Aren't javanese malay? Javanese language is austronesian related to other austronesian languages in southeast asia like Tagalog of the Philippines.

There are also temples in North India where the images of naga sword predate the javanese temple reliefs by centuries. In an archaeological point of view, that is enough an indication that keris could come from naga of northern India. The fact also that Indo-buddhist empires were established in Java, the idea that keris is of Indo-Buddhist origin is reinforced.

Thanks a lot.

baganing-balyan

[baganing_balyan]

in addition:

It would be easy to assume that keris is from kilis and kilich, but i have no basis to base that from since I am not sure if ch can be s and L can be R in early languages of java and sumatra. One thing I am sure though is that kalimantan is not the same as karimantan.

if R and L can be interchangeably used, then I assume it is a later evolution as a linguistic pattern. since etymological analysis suggests that kalimantan is from kali-- not kari-- and mantan. there are no malay words such as kaliman, liman, and limantan, so liman cannot be a root word.

I do, however, use keras because its meanings symbolize the form and use of keris. Do I have a proof? Linguistic etymology or word relationship is my proof in the absence of texts and written history.

if later I find an evidence that indeed keris is from kilis/kilich, then keras, as a word, evolved from keris.

I just don't think that we cannot imply from a sound fact to reconstruct history.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

That words like hulu (head) and ukiran (design?) have other meanings in the language in no way means they should be disregarded as legitimate ways to describe that object. That is, afterall, one of the ways language works, isn't it. Not every word in a language is completely unique to the object described.
I could be wrong, but i think i recall that "curiga" is one of the oldest recorded words for the keris from a pre-anglican source. By your own accounts the word "keris" wasn't anglicized until 1580. There is quite a bit of keris history that precedes that date, almost as much as comes after, so it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the keris had no other name previous to this date. Keris has been the generally accepted term in modern times by people throughout the region (and world), but there were times when that word would be meaningless in certain parts of Indonesia where other terminology was in used. Keris has undoubtly won out as the preferred name simply because it is the name that was anglicized, not because it was either the original or more "correct" word for the object.
I also think that you will find that the same word in different parts of the region can have slightly different meanings. Sundang, for instance, can refer to a sword length kris in some areas, but is merely a word for sword in others and is applied to swords which are definitely not kris.
I think that in the end this name game is much more complex than you are making it out to be.
"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao.
I don't think anyone here would argue that the kalis did indeed develop from it's origins in the Jawa keris. As for okir on Moro kris, i would not say that it is that "rare". I see it often, though certain not on all kris.

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, if you have not seen the gold masks but would like to see them, then visit the Metropolitan Museum (along Roxas Blvd), or the University of Santo Tomas (UST) Museum. While you are at the UST, check out the library. You will find lots of references there on the Philippines' past. Afterall, UST is the country's oldest university. By the way, also check out the Central Bank Museum which is also along Roxas Blvd. You may find gold stuff there as well.

Your passion for research is inspiring. You may want to deepen that research by talking to local experts and professionals who spend their lifetime gaining such information (as there is much still much not written in the internet). Universities like UST, the University of the Philippines, the Ateneo de Manila University, Mindanao State University, Xavier University in Cagayan de Oro, etc, etc. have very informed professors, anthropologists, historians, who can help you. It would be great to hear the result of your further research. Good luck!!!

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I forgot to mention the Summer Insitute of Linguistics located in Quezon City, Philippines. You will find lots of information there as well.

Nonoy

[Andrew]

Not going to happen.

Thread closed.