Austro-Hungarian cavalry sword M1869

Victrix · 25th September 2021, 03:22 PM

I recently acquired an Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal (k.k.) cavalry sabre M1869 for officers. It’s a nickelplated version with scabbard. There’s a fuller down one side of the 83.5cm long blade with a false edge. The 2.8cm wide forte is marked ”L. Zeitler Wien VIII”. The edges have not been sharpened, so I think it might be a parade version/staff officer’s sword? The symmetric hand guard (8.2cm wide at the grip) is decorated with floral openwork and the Habsburg double-headed eagle. The grip is covered in grey fish skin bound with silver wire. The pommel button is decorated with the owner’s monogram, which looks like a S and a H. The sword has a snug fit in the scabbard with no rattle.

As the dimensions are not that impressive, I wonder if there’s a battle version of this sword? How do I best care for the nickel plated surfaces; is it OK to wipe down the surfaces with a damp sponge, rub dry with a soft cloth, and then apply a layer of renaissance wax? Not sure it’s a good idea to apply mineral oil to the steel which I usually do with older swords (not nickelplated). Comments welcomed.

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2021, 12:40 AM

Austro Hungarian stuff gets confusing because the weapons are rather interpolated, and Austrian patterns seem to prevail for most as far as military. Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague ,1967 is the best source for these kinds of weapons. It seems this reference is not widely held here, though it does appear to be available. I got my copy (which is huge, not easily managed in this RV!) in about 1969, and have about worn it out!

The first is the M1869 cavalry troopers saber (p.356, pl. 54).

The second M1877, (p.358., pl.56) which is marked Joh. Zelinka Wien
and is described as 'leichter gattung' (=lighter edition).

It seems these sabers were used in the Austro-Hungarian cavalry which of course remained active through WWI. There were occasions too of their being mounted police, so these swords were certainly actively worn, at least the troopers versions.
The officers of course had more dress type sabers, and the lighter version M1877 was probably a parade weapon as well with lighter blade.

Resources cited:
"Adjustierungs und Ausrustungsvor schrift fur das K.K. Heer"
-Vienna, 1878 p.185
"Instruktransbuchfur die Einjahrig Freiwillen",
-Vienna, 1912 Vol.II, pl. X\
These are presumably both by Dolleczek.

These names listed at the forte are not makers, but outfitter/cutler/suppliers in Vienna, so do not appear in the listings for makers.

Victrix · 2nd October 2021, 04:25 PM

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?).

The photo below shows Austro-Hungarian hussars in Budapest.

kronckew · 2nd October 2021, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. ...

I have an Austrian artillery officer's sabre with the double slits in the upper portion of the narrow-ish guard. I've always been told they were for a sword knot. I also have a Swiss officer's sword with a highly decorated bowl guard that also has the Austrian style double slit. I have however never seen any Austrian or Swiss officers in illustrations/photos with a sword knot/portapee through those slits. I must assume they are there for another purpose.

The Austrian Artillery sword has a blade forte with a lot of floral engraving for about 6 inches, otherwise like the above one and is also plated and unsharpened, tho the edge is a dull 1mm or less and I would not want to be hit with it. The Swiss one is a rather nice pipe-backed and quill pointed patinated steel blade with a field sharp edge.

Victrix · 3rd October 2021, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

… I have however never seen any Austrian or Swiss officers in illustrations/photos with a sword knot/portapee through those slits. I must assume they are there for another purpose…

The slits are for the wrist cord/portapee. Looks rather smart in my opinion. It’s not easy to see properly, but it seems most of the soldiers in the photos wear the cord in the prescribed manner.

kronckew · 3rd October 2021, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

The slits are for the wrist cord/portapee. Looks rather smart in my opinion. It’s not easy to see properly, but it seems most of the soldiers in the photos wear the cord in the prescribed manner.

OK, thanks for the info, I like it when I can learn something new each day. I stand corrected & have adjusted my knots to suit.

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2021, 07:39 PM

[QUOTE=Victrix;266599]Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?).

Hi Victrix,

I'm glad I could offer these references. I have always thought these Austro-Hungarian swords were pretty intriguing, and always liked the troopers versions for their very 'business like' look. It seems strange in a way that cavalry and swords were used well into the 20th century.....and cavalry was still an integral battle order component despite machine guns etc.

The stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WWII was of course German propaganda, but these forces were vital in many functions. I knew a man whose father was in the Polish cavalry then, and he always spoke of his fathers saber, which to him as a child, was huge.

I am not sure about those slits, and I always thought they were for sword knots.

kronckew · 2nd October 2021, 07:52 PM

Oops! Forget to add this picture of an Austrian officer's sword with it's knot.

p.s.- The Poles used cavalry but left their lances home for parades. Not being fools, they usually parked their horses and fought on foot with machine guns and rifles. They did do a sabre charge on a German encampment and were very effective, coming out the other side they heard armoured vehicles approaching and wisely left.
The Germans widely used horse for transport of personnel and supplies, wounded, etc.. They were forbidden to film them in action tho, as hitler wanted everyone on the allies side to think they were all fully mechanized. They actually used almost twice the number of horses they'd used in WW1. especially when they started running out of gasoline and diesel. The Italian Cavalry also made a number of successful cavalry charges against the Russians.

Victrix · 3rd October 2021, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Victrix,

I'm glad I could offer these references. I have always thought these Austro-Hungarian swords were pretty intriguing, and always liked the troopers versions for their very 'business like' look. It seems strange in a way that cavalry and swords were used well into the 20th century.....and cavalry was still an integral battle order component despite machine guns etc.

The stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WWII was of course German propaganda, but these forces were vital in many functions. I knew a man whose father was in the Polish cavalry then, and he always spoke of his fathers saber, which to him as a child, was huge.

I am not sure about those slits, and I always thought they were for sword knots.

Jim, I share your sentiment completely, and like the wider and more businesslike blades. But in this particular case I fell for the eagle decoration on the guard. I believe Austro-Hungarian cavalry units were used more on the Eastern front in WWI against Russia. The casualty rates were substantial so efforts were made to make uniforms and horses less conspicuous, so to provide less clear targets. Kaiser Franz Joseph was said to dislike tanks because they frightened the cavalry horses!

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2021, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, I share your sentiment completely, and like the wider and more businesslike blades. But in this particular case I fell for the eagle decoration on the guard. I believe Austro-Hungarian cavalry units were used more on the Eastern front in WWI against Russia. The casualty rates were substantial so efforts were made to make uniforms and horses less conspicuous, so to provide less clear targets. Kaiser Franz Joseph was said to dislike tanks because they frightened the cavalry horses!

These are outstanding swords, and it seems few of the general public realize just how far into the 20th century the use of the sword and cavalry continued. While our line of demarcation for the study of weapons here is set at 1900, many of these 19th century patterns as well as actual examples carried , as we see, even up to WWII.

I once had the opportunity to interview a British Brigadier who had led one of the last mounted cavalry charges in Khyber regions in 1931. I was able to handle the M1912 officers sword he carried, and he showed me numerous weapons he captured. The unit was Bengal Lancers so the lance was of course used also.

The lances used by German uhlans in WWI were steel and 12ft. long. In considering the terrain in most of the battle areas, it is easy to understand that horses were most effective in most cases.

25th September 2021, 03:22 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Austro-Hungarian cavalry sword M1869 I recently acquired an Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal (k.k.) cavalry sabre M1869 for officers. It’s a nickelplated version with scabbard. There’s a fuller down one side of the 83.5cm long blade with a false edge. The 2.8cm wide forte is marked ”L. Zeitler Wien VIII”. The edges have not been sharpened, so I think it might be a parade version/staff officer’s sword? The symmetric hand guard (8.2cm wide at the grip) is decorated with floral openwork and the Habsburg double-headed eagle. The grip is covered in grey fish skin bound with silver wire. The pommel button is decorated with the owner’s monogram, which looks like a S and a H. The sword has a snug fit in the scabbard with no rattle. As the dimensions are not that impressive, I wonder if there’s a battle version of this sword? How do I best care for the nickel plated surfaces; is it OK to wipe down the surfaces with a damp sponge, rub dry with a soft cloth, and then apply a layer of renaissance wax? Not sure it’s a good idea to apply mineral oil to the steel which I usually do with older swords (not nickelplated). Comments welcomed. Attached Images

1st October 2021, 12:40 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Austro Hungarian stuff gets confusing because the weapons are rather interpolated, and Austrian patterns seem to prevail for most as far as military. Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague ,1967 is the best source for these kinds of weapons. It seems this reference is not widely held here, though it does appear to be available. I got my copy (which is huge, not easily managed in this RV!) in about 1969, and have about worn it out! The first is the M1869 cavalry troopers saber (p.356, pl. 54). The second M1877, (p.358., pl.56) which is marked Joh. Zelinka Wien and is described as 'leichter gattung' (=lighter edition). It seems these sabers were used in the Austro-Hungarian cavalry which of course remained active through WWI. There were occasions too of their being mounted police, so these swords were certainly actively worn, at least the troopers versions. The officers of course had more dress type sabers, and the lighter version M1877 was probably a parade weapon as well with lighter blade. Resources cited: "Adjustierungs und Ausrustungsvor schrift fur das K.K. Heer" -Vienna, 1878 p.185 "Instruktransbuchfur die Einjahrig Freiwillen", -Vienna, 1912 Vol.II, pl. X\ These are presumably both by Dolleczek. These names listed at the forte are not makers, but outfitter/cutler/suppliers in Vienna, so do not appear in the listings for makers. Attached Images

2nd October 2021, 04:25 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Hi Jim, Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?). The photo below shows Austro-Hungarian hussars in Budapest. Attached Images

2nd October 2021, 07:52 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Oops! Forget to add this picture of an Austrian officer's sword with it's knot. p.s.- The Poles used cavalry but left their lances home for parades. Not being fools, they usually parked their horses and fought on foot with machine guns and rifles. They did do a sabre charge on a German encampment and were very effective, coming out the other side they heard armoured vehicles approaching and wisely left. The Germans widely used horse for transport of personnel and supplies, wounded, etc.. They were forbidden to film them in action tho, as hitler wanted everyone on the allies side to think they were all fully mechanized. They actually used almost twice the number of horses they'd used in WW1. especially when they started running out of gasoline and diesel. The Italian Cavalry also made a number of successful cavalry charges against the Russians. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 2nd October 2021 at 08:16 PM.

2nd October 2021, 07:39 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	[QUOTE=Victrix;266599]Hi Jim, Many thanks for your comments. This is the officers’ version of the M1869 and a private purchase. The cavalry trooper’s sabre has a 3.6cm wide blade and a simpler guard perforated with holes (made it lighter). What’s common for both versions are the elegant double slits for the wrist cord with tassel. The officer version has a more elaborate decorated guard, sometimes with an added optional St.George or the Habsburg eagle as in this case. The dimensions of the officers’ sabres vary based on the preferences of the owners, and whether they were intended for dress wear or field service. This sabre for dress wear was manufactured by Ludwig Zeitler Wien VIII, who also made daggers and bayonets (est. in 1840?). Hi Victrix, I'm glad I could offer these references. I have always thought these Austro-Hungarian swords were pretty intriguing, and always liked the troopers versions for their very 'business like' look. It seems strange in a way that cavalry and swords were used well into the 20th century.....and cavalry was still an integral battle order component despite machine guns etc. The stories of Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WWII was of course German propaganda, but these forces were vital in many functions. I knew a man whose father was in the Polish cavalry then, and he always spoke of his fathers saber, which to him as a child, was huge. I am not sure about those slits, and I always thought they were for sword knots.