Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

katana · 12th January 2007, 05:14 PM

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again…

…..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

This war caused political and social upheaval….

1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:

France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).

The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.

Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.

1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.

The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City

ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

12th January 2007, 05:14 PM	#126
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted….. i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000. On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ . Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it…… Historically, in 1871 …. The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories. More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War This war caused political and social upheaval…. 1871-1918: At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland: France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874). The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built. Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration. 1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality 2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague. 3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance. The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion. 4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses. 5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive 6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule….. 7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’. Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ?? Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped……… We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power. There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration…… Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.) In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger. The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. Attached Images Last edited by katana; 12th January 2007 at 06:26 PM.