This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining).
I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.

This German glass chalice "for sacrificial blood" Bavaria 1855 has many of the elements seen in the knife that started the thread. It could be seen as a touch subversive which indeed may well have been the intentional edge to the piece, if one is to bring to mind the rather stifling muscular church influence on life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...happy/F005.jpg

Thankyou Tim that is nearer the mark. More detail would be nice.

Can you tell me whether there was any differance in the style of the 19th century casters from Germany & France? or would thier work be identical?

Spiral

I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.

Me niether I just recall it as the first book of that ilk I read. ;)

I am under the impresion that they were altar pieces also used in sacrifices & intiation cerimonys.

I thnk the BRL example is sharp, apparently many of these knives have the same blades as the daggers used by Napoleans mamelukes of the Imperial Guard.

cross section x Bayonets are only good for stabbing of course.

I presume the people who paid to have them made used them for any purpoise they wished?

Thats how humans usualy behave. IMHO

Spiral

Thankyou Tim,

Some says it was the Medical proffesion that helped perpetrate the last round of European witchburnigs to get rid of the herbal health/ complimentry medicene practioners as competition.

I have no idea whether that is plausible though?

Spiral

Gentlemen......I think that to determine the daggers use ...we should investigate further, the possible associations with Hugo's 'Hunchback of Notre Dame', there are so many links to the story and possible symbolism with the 'true' context of the Authors work that this dagger pocesses.

The hilt form already has already been discussed to a degree. The knife in 'Esmorelda's' waistband is paramount to the story......she is (falsely) accused of atempted murder, by stabbing....later excecuted because of this.
In the story she is shown as opening carrying one....

"Mademoiselle Esmeralda," said the poet, "let us come to terms. I am not a clerk of the court, and I shall not go to law with you for thus carrying a dagger in Paris, in the teeth of the ordinances and prohibitions of M. the Provost. Nevertheless, you are not ignorant of the fact that Noel Lescrivain was condemned, a week ago, to pay ten Parisian sous, for having carried a cutlass."

The scabbard with all its archetectual design.....shows clearly 3 arched doorways........ this is a quote from a synopsis of Chapter 3...

As the narrator remarks: "Time is blind, man stupid." Nevertheless, he emphasizes the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

The goat on the hilt was originally interpreted as 'satanic'...however..

"...., the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed as a half human, half goat figure, or a goat head. It is often misinterpreted as a symbol of witch-craft in general. It is used by Satanists, but is not used by neo-pagan witches who do not worship the devil.
The origin of the Baphomet is unclear. It may be a corruption of Muhomet (Mohammed). The english witchcraft historian Montague Summers suggested that it was a combination of two greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes, The Black Goat and the Judas Goat.

One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard :shrug:

Excelent points to ponder & illustration of possibilites Katana , thankyou. Good research! ;)

I would say if you google the various towns & city of europe for churches & cathedrals you will finf many such doorways though.

Linking a dagger to the story is excelent! I have seen lovely French figurine knives of the 1850 to 1870 period in my research, so they do exist. I was hoping some would post more pictures of them but they seeem rather rare.

But so do & are Satanist daggers, interpritation is the key.

Any input on the bishops or Jews with boils & faces of misery in the book?

But re you last point, I would say that if ever you are unfortuanate & unlucky enough to to stab someone or something & hit a bone you will see why most daggers have a crossgaurd. ;)


Heres another intresting point of construction.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d21.jpg

The blade is drilled lengthwise & threaded into a steel bolt in the hilt.

Has anyone found a dagger of such construction before?



Spiral

Double post :rolleyes:

You bring up a very good point here and that is that many of the symbols seen in modern religion ( Christian or Satanic ) and modern societal use pre-date Christianity. The fish used by christianity supposedly before the cross and still into today is also a very ancient symbol used by other religions, such as Buddhists and Pagans. At the risk of upsetting some ( and I am Roman Catholic so I understand how some could be upset by this I hope they will not ) there are parrallels between parts of the mass and the pagan rituals that the church often knowing adopted to help with getting conversions. Aristaeus , from Greek Mythology, son of the god Apollo and the nymph Cyrene, was often represented as a youthful shepherd carrying a lamb. The head of the fish forming a mitre above the head of a man, was used to represent the fish god Dagon, Some attribute the mitre which the Pope wears to beginning here. A dove, sometimes with an olive branch in its mouth, which is supposed to represent peace or the Holy Spirit today, and which supposedly was taken from either the story of when Noah sent the dove from the ark and it came back with the olive twig; or the Dove descending on Christ at His baptism, before that it represented Juno, the queen of heaven. Even the cross can be seen used in other religions. I believe there are crosses as Hindu symbolism, in Babylon they were used to represent the worship of sun gods and some say it was not until Emperor Constantine that they were used for christianity. The upside down cross often again associated with satanism is in some circles called Peter's cross as St. Peter is said to have been crucified upside down

So again to get to the point I was speaking of before rambling. All symbolism, including or perhaps particularly that on weapons can and will be interpreted differently by different groups based on their context. We may not be able to establish the context or the symbolism until we know why and when the knife was made and we may not be able to tell where and why it was made until we understand the symbolism. Indeed a problem




There is also no question this is true. Such accusations were widely abused because the person was always guilty until proven innocent , which was difficult to do.


BTW to everyone here on all sides of this discussion ( Satanic, Pagan and Hunchback of Notre Dame) I must say a great job of debating the case is being done on all sides.


Spiral
IMHO the way the blade is attached would again point towards this being a ritual or decorative item and never really designed for much use.

Wouldn't that strange construction exclude use as a weapon - sacrificial or otherwise? The short fillet wouldn't hold the blade too well in a stab would it? In my mind this adds to the possibility of the dagger being an artistic/decorative object...or if intended for some cult ceremony then certainly only for show, not use? Do you know hoe the other daggers you posted were constructed?
I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

Well most satanic knives are made of recycled or older blades. perhaps they already carried the symbolism as a used weapon?

The threading into the blade is incredibly tight & would certanly not be weakend by a couple of ribs. it is a short tang but locks up incredibly solid.

sure it wouldnt last years of wood chopping but a direct stab, {as all daggers & bayonets are designed for} wouldnt be a problem.

its steel threaded into steel on a 6mm diameter bar. 8mm deep I think an engineer could point out that that is a fairly strong fixing for a dagger.


i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.

even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!



Spiral

I don't reject satanic daggers having been around and it makes sense to me since the dagger is used in so many different cultural rituals that it too would be used in satanic ones. I do think they would have been very covert items as simply being in the vicinity of one could be cause for execution as a heretic.

I said above I believe there is historical evidence of satanic cults. I agree with David that the accounts were probably exaggerated and the accusations were abused. Those actually involved may have been the ones seeming most pious to their neighbors. Think about when a criminal is caught today and the neighbors talk about how they were always quiet and never caused issues or problems.

I am however open to debate on what the true meaning of the symbols on this dagger are

Agreed!

So am I, but lets face it with 20 odd naysyers it wouldnt be much of a discusian if i didnt at least play devils advocate. ;) :D

Evidence is usefull , conjecture when informed is as well.

Opinions, based on upbringing whether mine or yours, are quite worthless as thats all they are. Especialy if faith becomes involved.


Spiral

I would guess its original blade as a sword was nearer 18 inches? I think that would be right for a 16th century swiss Baselard?

Spiral

Well this is the crux of the matter for me. You say "satanists or whatever they may be called". Once the church gained enough power to rule over large groups of people there most probably arose opposition to their power. The church certainly would consider these people satanist. But they also considered practitioners of any pagan religion satanists. Yet these people were not satanists, that is to say their god or gods were not satan. Certainly these people used knives, but there is not much evidence that they used them in any particular non-Christian rituals. As i mentioned earlier, the dagger as a ritual tool does not really come into mode until relatively recent times, that is, the 19thC. Sure, perhaps a knife would be used in an animal sacrifice, but if this were done in the context of some pagan rite it is unlikely that a knife would be created with such obvious pagan symbolism as to possibly bring down the wrath on the inquisition if such an item were found. Pagans of old were common people who used common tools in ritual ways when it was called for. I have serious doubts that there was much human sacrifice going in Christian Europe, unless, of course, you count the witch burnings and the Albigensian Crusade ("Kill them all...God will know his own"). So i think there is a reason why knives such as these don't seem to appear until the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Age of Enlightenment. ;) :D At this time many sercet societies were forming. To the common god-fearing Christian they may have appeared "satanic", but i doubt many of them were. Some, perhaps. There is nothing on any of these knives that couldn't be used by some esorteric mystical lodge whose beliefs, in essence may have even been Christian. Skull and cross bones, snakes,owls images of Pan, none of these point to a satanic origin. ALL of them could be used by a satanist, but so could church regalia if used in a disrespectful manner.
I certainly believe many of these daggers have an occult origin and significance. My argument is that they should not be called "satanic". I suggest "occult dagger" instead. That being said, i would still vote for the "Hunchback" story in regards to your dagger Spiral.

I agree with David, perhaps the term 'occult' would be a much better 'working description' for studying these daggers employed ceremonially by certain groups, referring to the athame of course.
In the case of Spiral's dagger, I am inclined to agree that it is most likely a 19th century theme dagger that reflects the same literary inspiration seen in the early Swiss daggers referenced in my earlier post. The Victorian period is well known for heightened romanticism of this nature and the popularization of 'Gothic literature' . On that note, I very much like the literary detection done by Katana! :) I am quite convinced that Yannis' observation of the depiction of Esmeralda on this dagger is correct and extremely astute!

I also think that this thread has become extremely interesting, especially since much of the ritual and ceremonial use of the 'athame' corresponds with the metaphysical aspects of certain weapons of this type in numerous cultures, with the Tibetan 'phurbu' as an example. In this sense I think these daggers, despite somewhat sinister associations as interpreted may well be considered worthy of discussion in ethnographic perspective. I also think that the impressive posts that everyone has placed on this thread reveals the comprehensive knowledge of the membership here on even the most esoteric topics and begs to differ with the question of whether this dagger should have been posted on an ethnographic forum....and I am very glad that Spiral did post it here!
Excellent thread guys!! :)

All best regards,
Jim

Since I wrote the “Huchback” opinion, there are 3 more evidences to agree with it.
1. The knife in the belt, as Katana wrote
2. The item she holds is a tambourine. Please notice the circles.
3. I asked about the dress code of this woman and they told me that only the lower part of society (like a gipsy) would dress like this on the streets of central Europe in early 19th century. Even Disney studios knows that. :rolleyes:

Also, the half man half goat figure is Pan, the ancient Greek god of shepherds and their flocks. He became “satanic” symbol when Christians took the political power. His sins were he enjoyed music, dance and making love in the woods. 2000 years later these are still crimes for some minds.
BTW the word “panic” comes from his name because he could inspire fear if he wished so. So he was a great ally for warriors. Athenians believed that with his help won the Marathon battle when Persians lost their guts.
:D

My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided :D ;) :D that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline.

I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast! ;) :eek:

It is early in the morning here.

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley :D :D

Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure!

I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic.

We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade.

The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not.

The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out.

But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan.


Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards.

Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s7.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s8.jpg

& the previos example for your convience.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/dagger5.jpg

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s10.jpg

& Notre damn to compare.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y15...notre-dame.jpg

As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

Here are a few more photos to illustrate some of the features in more detail.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s6.jpg


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s14.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s3.jpg


It has been suggested to me a theaded bolt into the blade is known German construction of c.1850 to c.1875 period, but I have sadley not got other examples to share.Anyone else?

The tile/shingle appearance on the steeple could certanly have Germanic origins although it also reminds me of Scandanavion work .

So all in all as enjoyable & wide ranging as the "occult" discusian is it would be nice to find some hard evidence to refute my points that i have further illustrated for you. Regarding 19th century cast figural knives whether the occult type or just the custom gift work of wealthy powerfull europeans like the one Ive illustrated from the Wallace collection.


Spiral

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

;) :)

Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.


It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever? ;)


Spiral

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

Excelent Tim, I am relieved you regard my piece as "franklin mint" :D

I try not to comment on the quality of items you usualy show.

Thanks for the figural knife, photo as poor as it is it helps proove my point! :D the scabbard is viewed handle upright!

One can see that from the man figured on the scabbard.

excelent.

many thanks for supporting my case. ;)

Spiral

If we stick with the idea this dagger is 'Esmeralda themed' I believe further symbolism can be infered.

Esmeralda, is a gypsy, considered a heathen and 'god less' by the Parisians.

Frollo, a principle character, is a priest at Notre Dame, whom because of his carnal desires for Esmeralda, which she ignores, ends up being instrumental in her demise. This member of the church is shown to be weak, an abuser of his position and acts in an 'un-christian' manner towards her.

When Esmeralda first escapes her captors she is taken to Notre Dame to seek 'sanctuary', (whilst in the grounds of the church, the 'law' cannot apprehend her). But later the 'sanctuary' is rescinded and she loses the protection of the church, and is re-captured.

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on. ;)

Apparently thats nearer the usual quality of satanic dagger if you speak the people who collect such things.

The French short sword has 2 fullers, there the reasemblace ends. They are very diffent from the cross sectional profile of the occult daggers that I started this thread with.

I have lots of kukri with fullers that to many people,all look the same, but there are many differences if one studys them.

Spiral

Ooops :o

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.
:)

As I said that my opinions have the same worth as others, that is the recognition of the truth. I can tell what is opinion & what isnt.Whether mine or others. Opinions are merly that, unless the come from a person familiar & expierinced with what is bieng discused. In this case a 19th century European cast Figural knife.

I was hoping that amongst the forumites there might be some one who could provide facts or evidence, about such as figural pieces in which the scabbard would be in the manner Jim first describded, before I questined him on it & offered further examples of Figural pieces, which so far all imply that the church is upside down. Just like the liberty torch on another exampale.

Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. :D {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud. :D ;)

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}

Deduction of opinion is still just opinion, intresting yes but unless it comes from someone with expierience it would be like getting a koto katana judged by an African weapons collector. Intresting but possibly wrong & would be tootaly worthless as an appraisel.Whearas if Rich Stein if he had an opinion about it , it would have a much greater weight as he is expierienced in the subject.

As I said in the Rhino thread I always appreciate people who have had lots of hans on expeirience & study there subject in depth. {As I am sure you do with krisses or whatever it is you are into.}


Spiral

Ps.

After the discusian of fullers Heres a couple of fellers with a kukri with a rather well done fuller. :D

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...irmoor-666.jpg

It definatly a keeper, same as this figural knife.

Spiral

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

As I mentioned above the inverted cross can either be a satanic symbol or seen as St Peters Cross depending on context and interpretation. I do not know where the picture was taken but if it was somewhere like St Peters Basilica such a cross would make sense ( and I do not know if the church at the Mount of Beatitudes would have such an association to St Peter) . There is also a St Andrews cross which is like an X ( and this one has a very different interpretation, other than the catholic church one, also that is probably not a good subject for this forum) Both St Andrew and St Peter as the story goes requested to be crucified on a different cross than Christ because they did not feel worthy of dying in the exact same manner he did.

The Catholic church does, have problems, The inverted cross you feature appears on many websites pointing that out. ;)

Spiral

Turning a cross upside down is also a common feature of the black mass.

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity. ;)

Spiral

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. :D {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud. :D ;)

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah. :D :confused: :shrug:
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down. :rolleyes:

The innocents ones cant see... :D {or dont want to?}


Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters. :eek: :D

:D