Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[wolviex]

Hello friends!

A few days ago, our Forum Friend RSword asked me about posting pictures of Oriental arms from Museum where I work. I admit, I said I'm planing few krises by now, but... how could I refuse. So I went to one of the magazines and I have choose few different Oriental objects, which were at the hand. Hope you will have fun watching them. I won't comment them, because your knowledge is far greater than my about these sort of things. If you will have any questions anyway, I won't promise, but I will try to answer. And I know, some of the pictures are shown in "Jens Nordlune way" - only a part of the object. You can ask me about the pic of the whole thing, but I can't promise to fulfil it, while these are the only pictures I have at the hand right now . Some of them you may know from catalogues.
RSword - I hope this will fulfil your expectations

Ragards!

part 1:

[wolviex]

part 2:

[tom hyle]

Thanks; worth waiting for the pictures to load. What is inside the animal's mouth on the back side of that axe? We've seen a similar (though I don't think zoomorphic, or more stylized anyway) one where there was an open hollow space there; on this one there seems to be some sort of structure between the jaws.

[wolviex]

Sorry for the size of the pictures and your time you spend on waiting until pictures will upload.

Tom: there's a devil's head in the animal's mouth

[tom hyle]

Interesting; thanks.

[RSWORD]

Michel,

Thank you so much for posting all those beauties. You chose a great variety of items with many unique features. Just a couple to comment on:

1) The first helmet pictured is fantastic. What great workmanship in this parade helmet and illustrates the endless variety one can find from these regions of the world
2) The S Indian enamaled sword is great! The enameling is typical of Lucknow workmanship and the hilt has a typical South Indian flare.
3) The lovely dagger with the gold or gold gilt mounts has a most interesting "lizard" attached. I am wondering what this lizard represents. A most unusual motif for what I am guessing is an Indo-Persian or Indo-Arab knife.
4) I really like the Caucasian saber. The "shamshir" hilted examples are not seen as often and the niello work is lovely. The blade on that one is great!

All the others are fantastic examples and the extra detail in the pictures really gives one a better "feel" than what you find in most pictures in books because they just do not have the space to allow for many close up pictures so one can study all the details.

Thank you for making my morning!

[wolviex]

You're welcome Rick

Everybody: please, feel free to comment, I would like to know more your opinions, while my knowledge about Orient is still not satisying.

Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wow Wolviex, my dear brother in arms you are a lucky man indeed , I almost pooped in my pants at the sight of these pics , pardon my French !
Royal quality pieces and my hat is off to you for your photographic quality standards ! I lost my sense of speech until further notice ...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michel,
Thank you for posting these fantastic items! Yes, these photos are very much of Jens' superb quality, I couldn't agree more.

I can offer some observations on some of the items.
1. the dagger seems to correspond with 19th c. Ottoman examples in the style of dress, but is very close to the Indian jambia daggers as well. The 'lizard' most likely represents the salamander, which has been held very important in early symbolism and allegories, especially alchemical. Its association with fire may have similar ties to the phoenix, which also appears on oriental weapons in allegorical symbolism.
2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.
3. The yataghan is a beautiful example, probably late 18th to the early years of the 19th. There is considerable debate about examples with these studded hilts, and they seem to be typically Balkan as this feature seems to correspond with similar studded motif on some Bosnian knives and many of the resources list these as Balkan. This certainly does not rule out Turkish provenance though, as these regions were all Ottoman so it is difficult to say precisely. The coral decor has significance which needs more research, both these and turquoise were important in the motif on many weapons from these regions, and most likely carried talismanic meaning in degree.
4. The enameled sabre is most interesting as it is indeed of S.Indian form with the stylized creatures probably being the makara of Hindu mythology which has associations with the god Varuna, Lord of the Deep. In his fantastic new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" , Dr. Robert Elgood has noted also a similar creature termed 'yali' which is a beneficient protective demon often placed on weapons (p.100). It is also noted that the turned down quillons are of Deccani influence in the example he shows on the page cited.
What is most interesting is that the enamelled motif is as noted, of Lucknow style, however Lucknow is actually in the northern regions of India in Oudh, SE of the Punjab. On p.156 Dr. Elgood references a clearly south Indian katar from Tanjore of the 17th c. which along with a number of others were enamelled sometime in the late 18th to early 19th c. (a drawing of one of these appears in Pant). Possibly this sabre may have been included along with those during this time? More research !!

Hopefully this observations will be helpful in directing further research and discussion as these are wonderful examples and we can learn a lot from them. Thanks again Michel!!! Nicely done

All the best,
Jim

[wolviex]

Friends!

Thank you for your opionions so far, and especially about few words of explanation. Every factual information is at a premium for me. So please, I want more

Jens: although you didn't show yourself here I'm curious your opinions as well, especially as the Indian weapons lover and expert. I hope you're not angry I've used your Name here in the figurative sense - in my opinion it only means "the best" and Jim has confirmed it. Your great close-up pictures were the inspiration for some of my pics.

And it seems to me I owe you few words of explanation for this objects:

1. Indian Helmet (Sind?) is the part of whole armour... well, almost whole, because there is only a jacket while trousers are lost. Everybody who posses "Stara bron w Polskich Zbiorach" by Z. Zygulski - go to p. 226-227, item no. 233;

2. Enamelled sabre: all the fittings are on their proper place - one loose shown on the second picture is just cut off the picture . Please take a look at a leather on sheath with beautiful embossed pattern.

3. Arm-guard - again Z. Zygulski "Stara bron.." p. 210, no. 219;

4. Beautiful parade axe, Persian, with the miniature of Ali and his sons: Hassan and Husein. Ali has the Zulfikar sabre (?) ("Stara bron..." p. 239, no. 246)

5. Caucasian sabre - what I like most, is the very nice silver and gold incrustation (made only on one side) (again "Stara bron..." p. 244, no. 252c)

6. Turkish sabre - phenomenal (IMO) pattern visible on close-up picture: engraved in steel floral design with gilded, a little coarse background. Gold incrustation on the other side is very nice too.

7. Yatagan was published probably in "War and Peace" catalogue ("Wojna i Pokoj" in Polish), but I don't have this book at the hand right now.

8. On this picture we can see: powder-horn, small box probably for an oil or wax, and the powder-measure - all Persian, probably.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 1 & 2 : Chainmal helmet with face mask - NorthWestern Indian, probably Rajput or Sind (if the bird topping the helmet is original it is the Kutch Bhuj area (today`s Pakistan, which I am more and more certain the longer I examine the copper/brass craftsmanship so much in Lahore style) made in Mughal fashion. The mask was used by full clad armored cavalrymen , specialy mounted escorts, paiges and retainers. The helmets inspired by the burkha ( Islamic female veil) are named purdah or purdha. We all know how hard is to accuratelly date Indo-Persian archeological finds due to their extensively long mentained and unchanged style which leaves us at the mercy of apreciating age based on general health and condition of the piece itself which is almost an unsafe thing to base a verdict upon but I take my chance and say 19th century, even though next person that has a solid argument I might not know can make me look like a complete fool in regards to age , however as far as origins and the rest I stand firmly by my affirmations ...


After comming back from work I would be happy to comment on the rest of your stuff ...

[wolviex]

Radu: I think you're near the truth. In my opinion this helmet was made around 19th century, Zygulski dated it on 18th/19th century.

One remark. When I look on the masks from armours like this one (in other museums like Stibbert in Firenze for example) they all seems to me grotesque, while this one is more solemn. Am I wright or it's just my imagination? Any thoughts?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, I was updating my thoughts while you already answered, see if you read it all ... as far as the one on Stibert in Firenze, wasnt that a Tartar one ? They are known for adopting the Indo-Persian helmet styles but with more grotesque forms.

[wolviex]

Radu, as far as I can remember this armour was descripted just as a Sind one, but... maybe description wasn't proper... or, I admit, my memory doesn't source me well. Don't have this catalogue at the hand at the moment, so I will check it later.

Thanks for your commitment !

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 3 & 4 : Hindustani Kilij from Mysore. The hilt is of vyaghramukhi (leopard shape) and along with the tehnal ( sheath chape) it is completely covered in meenakari work (Indian style metal enameling). 18th century

The triple animal head shape 2+1 and the enamel and the hilt finish are all characteristics that point towards Mysore region but not exclude others.
Rsword mentions well Lucknow as being the heart of meenakari (Hindustani enameling) and it could be possible that enameling itself was executed there but I would not be absolutelly certain just because it remained the largest centre of such craftsmanship.
Although, many pieces of Indian or Mughal arms and armour were worked on different places like Blades from Persia, brasswork from Lahore , hilts from Tanjore or scabbards from Rajput for example but most times a certain fine pattern or a blend could be observed as being characteristic to one region.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 5 & 6 : 17th – 18th century . Persian / Mughal armguard (known as dastana in India or bazouband in Persia) it has a rarely preserved zirah (chainmail) gauntlet.
The central motif is surya (Sun God) very popular in Indo-Persian armor a motif present not only on the plates of armor but bass-relief ornamented on many war shields (sipar or dhal). Mughal decoration (the blend of Hindu and Islamic is easily observed) is executed in true gold damascening or tah-nishana technique (carve and inlay), much superior to the koftgari (scratch and inlay) technique, more widespread.

In a similar manner to the Sun God motif seen here, other deities faces appear on the war maces where horned faces of devils or bulls are preferred but instead of bas-relief projection they are statuesquely carved making up the bulbous (and therefore the dangerous) part of the war mace.

[wolviex]

Many thanks Radu for your help. I'm curious what informations will you bring next time

Armguards seems to be indeed from the end of the 17th century. Prof. Zygulski linking this one with armour, shield and helmet (see "Stara bron...). There is many controversy around this armour.. but this is another story. Chain mail is in great condition, and beautiful interweaved with brass rings what gives a pattern on it, visible also on my pic. Around the edges are inscriptions, not well visible here. While under the armguard is the newest (?), well preserved, violet material. Controversies around this one focused on dating. Some of the scholars claimed it is 19th century, beacause the inscription, as they said, was made in 19th century calligraphy. Prof Zygulski still maintan 17th/18th century theory. Where is the truth, I don't know.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.

1. I would like to express my deepest appreciation for the posting of these pictures.

2. If I may, the question to Jim - why do you think it's chechen ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Radu Transylvanicus]

The helmet and the armguards are not part of the same armor, they were made centuries and even more miles apart, Pane Wolviexowsky ! Its like putting Colonel Wolodjowsky to fight the Kaiser boys kind of deal ...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello wolviex,

No I am not angry, I am very pleased, with the pictures and with your kind words.
What you show are fantastic pieces - thank you very much, and the photographing is exelent - I wish I could do it like you have, but I have problems controlling the light.
I have not been able to write as I have been unable to get on the net since Saturday, and only to day the modem or the telephon central for this area has started to behave, although it is very unstable, so to get an answer to you I will send it now, and comment later when things gets more stable.
Interesting comments Radu and Jim.

Thanks - it is a pleasure to see your pictures.

Jens

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 7 & 8. Persian parade tabar zin (large war-axe) early Qajar Period (late18th – early 19th century) – Crescent moon shaped blade, with demon head (double dragon as probably a smaller head protrudes out of the larger one’s mouth normally but you can’t see it here) hammer-head . The flag (?! cannot find the vexiologicaly correct therm for the moment) has an Indo-Persian symbol: the surya ( the God Sun motif) in bass relief on one side and a mystical sufi scene Persian miniature painted on the other.
Its is the only exemplar so far I know decorated like this ! Rare stuff and again these Indo-Persian items are not part of the same outfit, however the vanguard (bazouband) and this tabar zin are a very a good pair perfectly fit to keep eachother company in a museum display!
Hey JENS, I would like to hear your opinion specially in this war axe, what do tyou think about the miniature and the age ? Isnt it amazing how on one side you see Persian art using the surya sun face also a classic Rajput emblem and the miniature on the side has much more Ottoman Turk than Mughal in style ...

[wolviex]

Jens: thank you.

Radu: are you going to ruin prof Zygulski work of life
I won't linger discussion about armour I have mentioned before, because of few private reasons and because the pic of it is not here. Anyway, thank you for this remark about "non-compatibility" of this few objects - maybe someday we will continue this further

The parade axe was dated by prof Zygulski as 17th/18th century so far. Well, I'm in hard position now Radu. Prof Zygulski is a great scholar and historian, thanks to him we know in Poland so much about weapons and the world heard about us as well. He is also great specialist of Persian art (not only weapons, but art overall) while I admit, some other scholars are arguing sometimes with him, but still he is the one who wrote about Turkish and Persian arts wide monographs since many years. I can't judge his work while this regions of knowledge are still terra nova for me, but I allow the thought that he may be wrong.
So - Radu, please don't stop your work. But please give some notes with acknowledgments, where did you get this informations (if only it isn't secret and only if you can) they will be helpful as well. Dear Friends - let's discuss also this great Radu's job - any polemics, or confirms?

Thank you once more
Ragards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

On the axe there is a good chance it might be as early as late 17th I am flexible on that it is the miniature that made me push it a little further, I walk a fine line when aproximate age on the axe thats exactly why I was asking Jans what he thinks about the age of the axe !
My compliments to prof. Zygulski , so far I dont see too much difference between our ideas, as far as "compatibility" if it is to be a display box labeled as "Classic Indo-Persian arms and armour" they are a perfect match but if you shoot for something like "Mughal warrior set - 18th century" then we need to sit down at a round table and talk about it...
Has anyone decrypted the inscription yet?
As far as the miniature isnt it amazing and beautiful that in Persian art even though Islamic, the painting of human figures was not forbidden but even encouraged in splendid images like this, where even though Imam Ali is a crucial character in the Quran as being the messenger and voice of God his physical image and face are not repudiated but embraced making Persia pretty much the only place where pictorial Muslim iconography exists...

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, on tabar zain I went ahead and analysed some more Persian axes, it does seem Safavid (17th century) just like I tought too at the beggining too but then there is the miniature which seem to me it was executed later than that !

[Rick]

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts .

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Rivkin,
Thanks very much for acknowledging my post and observation on the Georgian sabre. My suggestion that the blade on this sword was most likely Chechen was exactly that, a suggestion. I do appreciate your question which suggests a difference in opinion, and I look forward to further discussion in which views held otherwise would provide an opportunity for us all to learn more on these weapons.

My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.
This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.

Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by Rick

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts .

Et pour qoui, mon cher ami ? Je ne comprend pas ...

[Rick]

Documentation , mon ami , documentation .
Chapter and verse and all that old chap .

[Ian]

Jim:

Thanks so much for your comments. As I have been reading some of the exchanges here, I echo your concerns about referencing the sources for our comments and opinions. Your forthrightness is an example for all of us.

This is particularly important when we are considering items that have already been the subject of discussion by eminent scholars, as Wolviex has noted. These are not village bolos about which we often toss around opinions lightly -- these are beautiful and significant swords from a highly reputable museum, and they deserve our best efforts at scholarly discussion.

That's not to say that humble bolos are unworthy of serious and scholarly discussion.

Ian.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Rivkin

You told me to call you Jim, so if you call me Kirill it's going to be more fair.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.

Unfortunately I did find some of Askhabov's statements on chechen traditions to be nothing but fairy tales, so I've decided (probably incorrectly) to not buy the book, so I unfortunately do not have it.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.

1. The sword's blade is a little bit too straight to be shashka - it seems to me to be more of a palash (even through there were some extremely straight shashkas, but so straight and broad).

Let's assume it's chechen, than:

a. It's indeed a palash (Nii'sa Tur).
b. Most of chechen palashes were made before 1850, when the production was switched to shashkas (Askhabov ?). Additionally chechen palashes very often do not have cross guards.
c. Chechen palash is also called kaldam - extremely rare weapon, almost always has either a wolf (ters-maimal) or a cross (kaldam) insignia, later models can additionally have gurda (Again, don't have Askhabov on hands, but I think he also writes about it).
d. Assume that actually wolf was avoided due to high islamization. The problem that arises immidiately is - which tribe is the owner ? The problem is that usual owner of palashes are the nighbours of khevsurs - tribe Mjalhista.

Mjalhista were idolaters until very late XIX century (with actual human sacrifices performed here and there). They never backed off from using their idol-symbolics on their weapons, in particular from the Sun (Astvatsaturjan p.166). Shatoi - but they were constantly charged with being Zhukti.
In general all southern, mountain Chechnja was quite pagan at the time, and not on good terms with Shamil and imams.

Bolshyi Atagi - what I can't understand in this case is that there is no "classical" Atagi motiff - very long, almost through the entire blade floral ornament, like Astvatsaturjan page 147. Again Atagi never stopped putting kaldam (cross-like) images on the blades (Astv. 146).

While there are some very straight chechen shashkas (Astv. 142), but they usually don't have a floral motiff like this one (it's better to say I've never seen one), but gurda, kaldam and so on are common. Plus they are not so wide at the hilt, and not so straight (again it's more of a semi-palash).

Next candidate for me would be Dagestan. Straight swords do appear in Dagestan, specifically Lezgin and southern Avar areas, but are not well described (Astv. 145?). However here is the main problem I have with non-georgian origins - it seems that the guard and the blade have motiffs that are very similar and most likely the hand of the same master. However the guard does contain a seven-point star - an intrinsic georgian symbol (sometimes said to symbolize 7 main georgian tribes). I've seen a lot of Dagestani blades with six-point stars, but never with this, very georgian symbol. This and some smaller things may be telling of a georgian origin.

However it does not seem to be a classical khevsurian example, and it seems to be of much more elaborate production. However the possibilities are many, and may be (as you've said) it was made as a gift, and not to actually carry it into khevsuria and start killing people.

I do suspect that in the middle of the image on the blade we will find a signature in arabic, and it well may be that if we read it, it can tell us where the maker was from (it could be a Dagestani, working in Georgia, remembering that at the start of XIX century most of smiths in Georgia were muslim).

However there is one small issue with a gift to Russia theory - russians don't care about georgian symbolics, and stars, they love shashkas (which were a standard weapon in many units), and don't know anything about mountain sabres.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

Ah, references, shmeferences. I always like to see some collectors scorch after you point to something "well, that's most likely something modern"
)))