A few sundry pirate items...

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 03:01 AM

Arrrr...

Sorry, couldn't resist. Had some rare time on my hands, so I thought I'd take a pic of a couple items. Here we have a Queen Ann style cannon barrel pocket pistol. Despite its size, it was a .45 cal! Two types existed of this pistol, with this being the true "pocket" size. A favorite of sea captains who carried them in their great coats while visiting the local port taverns. They likewise saw sea service on privateers. This one dates to circa 1770.

The other item is a grenado, from which the hand grenade we all know descended from. It was small enough to store in buckets and carried up into the Great Tops. The hole would have had a fuse thrust through a wooden tube/plug. These things really could turn the tide of a successful boarding. During John Paul Jones great naval fight off Flamborough Head, the battle was won by a sailor in the rigging dropping handfuls of these on the British ship's deck. This specimen still has the congealed powder/explosive visible down the hole. Wouldn't want to throw this one in a fireplace-

Rick · 27th April 2010, 03:09 AM

Don't drop it either !

Nice pistol .

Battara · 27th April 2010, 04:00 AM

Pistol in some respects (especially the handle) reminds me of the Scottish pistol.

Little grenade reminds me of a small boweling ball in looks. Wonder what it would do to 10 pins!

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 06:31 AM

Thanks, gents, for the compliments on the gun. I think the silver wirework was something seen on some Scot pistols?

Ahh, well bowling with one of these, you never have to worry about getting a split.

celtan · 27th April 2010, 02:05 PM

Can the barrel be unscrewed?

And yes, BP can remain active for centuries, the coarser the grain, the longer its life.

Best

M

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 04:07 PM

Hello Manuel,
Yes, these type barrels are meant to be un-screwed using a special wench tool which I unfortunately don't possess at the moment. I had thought about using a tool wrapped in cloth so as not to marr the barrel, but I didn't want to risk it.

Yes, it was only several years ago that an esteemed collector of Civil War munitions was killed when he was cutting into an old Dahlgren shell, I believe? It is a popular thing to have some of these old shell casings cut in half, but of course, extremely dangerous unless you know what you are doing!!

Rick · 27th April 2010, 04:41 PM

Shellfishing can be dangerous :
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pb...4/NEWS/4240317

Battara · 27th April 2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Shellfishing can be dangerous :
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pb...4/NEWS/4240317

M ELEY · 27th April 2015, 10:44 PM

Here's a smallsword, as carried by Spanish naval officers among others. The large pas d'ane, double kidney-shaped guard and ovoid pommel leads me to believe its mid to late 18th? Despite their dainty appearance, these swords descended from the rapiers and many still possessed lethal colichemarde blades for defense...

dana_w · 27th April 2015, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Here we have a Queen Ann style cannon barrel pocket pistol. Despite its size, it was a .45 cal! Two types existed of this pistol, with this being the true "pocket" size.

Hi M ELEY,
That is a nice short sword you posted today.

There is some disagreement about what is and what is not a "Queen Ann Pistol". I believe that your pistol may more accurately be described as a Box Lock Pistol. Like the conventional Queen Ann, they have turn-off barrels. Burgoyne does cover Box Lock Pistols in his book "The Queen Anne Pistol 1660-1780", but many collectors wouldn't classify a Box Lock Pistol as a Queen Anne.

To quote one well know Queen Anne collector John Chalapis:

I would also like to mention that the box lock, center cock variety that came into vogue during the last half of the 18th century, was purposely not included in my talk as I feel that this variety was not the true Queen Anne but a modification of less expensive design and manufacture

http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...8_Chalapis.pdf

M ELEY · 28th April 2015, 03:47 AM

Thanks for the proper terminology, Dana. I had always wondered about that screw barrel pistols continued use far longer than the so called Queen Anne types...

dana_w · 28th April 2015, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks for the proper terminology, Dana. I had always wondered about that screw barrel pistols continued use far longer than the so called Queen Anne types...

Check out my avatar M ELEY. With the exception of a grotesque mask on the butt-cap, it has all the features you'd expect to find in a Queen Anne Pistol. Some might consider it a Queen Anne, but because it was probably made around 1690 it is really a prototype of what would become know as the Queen Anne. Queen Anne`s reign didn't begin until March 8th 1702, and you can't have a Queen Anne Pistol before there is a Queen Anne.

http://weaponscollector.com/h_ellis_c1690.php

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2015, 05:53 AM

I would point out here that 'Cap'n Mark' was using the term 'Queen Anne' 'contextually' I believe, to describe this small but potent 'pocket cannon'. As a brilliant author of tales of the 'Golden Age of Piracy' his thoughts naturally are of these times particularly during the reign of Queen Anne ( many pirates had allegiance to her despite their outlaw ways, i.e Blackbeard's ship the Queen Annes Revenge).

It would seem that while the 'golden age' had long passed, the traditions and activities of 'piracy' continued well into the 18th century, as did the 'Spanish Main', as one of the driving forces in these pursuits . In the many years of collecting and studying the arms used in these colorful times, one may be allowed a bit of latitude in my opinion in describing the arms in that sense .

As Burgoyne states ("The Queen Anne Pistol" 1660-1780", 2002, p.52),
"...the boxlock was a logical development of the side cock Queen Anne style pistol".
Perhaps the date range covered in this outstanding reference which includes the period of the pistol Mark has shown (1770) also would allow the term to be inferred in this sense. Actually he describes the pistol as Queen Anne 'style' in the same manner as Burgoyne.

Naturally, the later pistols in Burgoyne are properly termed 'boxlock',but for our moments venturing into the literary world of piracy ("Treasure Island" was set in the 1750s) , we might consider a pirate captain with one of these in his coat pocket as Mark describes........and he may well have recalled the times of Queen Anne.

I think there's still a bit of 'romantic ' in most of us old sea dogs!!

CutlassCollector · 28th April 2015, 06:13 PM

Nice pistol Mark, and good to see a nautical thread again.
I'm also looking forward to the book publication - sounds like a good yarn.
CC.

M ELEY · 28th April 2015, 08:22 PM

Dana, thanks for the exceptional thread. I like your avatar!

Thank you, Jim and CC, for your comments. I think Dana's information is correct in the technical sense and I appreciated the clarification. Jim, you do point out the fact that these awesome screw barrels continued to be called 'Queen Anne style' pistols, a fact I've also encountered over the years. The cannon-type barrel pistols certainly create visual pictures of sea captains and piracy. As mentioned in my original thread, they were popular with captains and officers, carried in their 'great coat pockets' for protection.

P.S. CC, I'm all out of items to post and hope you can add to the thread! I also miss the nautical items!

dana_w · 29th April 2015, 12:01 AM

John Chalapis talks about some of the classification problems in his American Society of Arms Collectors article. Keep in mind he was writing many years before Burgoyne's book was published.

To my knowledge there has been comparatively little information written to describe and clarify the Queen Anne pistol. I am sure that all of you have a visual idea of a Queen Anne, but if you are asked to describe it, it becomes very difficult. For every positive statement that can be made about the Queen
Anne pistol, a counter statement can be made. For example: "All Queen Anne pistols have turn off barrels." There are many examples that do not screw off (see figure 1). "The lock is always integral with the Breech." I have several examples with detachable side locks (see figures 2 and 3). "The barrel is always cannon shaped at the muzzle." I have seen Queen Anne pistols with large flared muzzles, which could be called blunderbuss Queen Annes. So, therefore, my description will not refer to the exception, but to the general rule of Queen Anne pistols.

The classic Queen Anne pistol may be said to be a breech loaded pistol - turn(screw) off barrel - the lock is integral with the breech- the cock is located on the side of the lock and generally has no wood forward of the lock (see figures 4,5, and 6). The butt of the grip has a slight curve forward terminating in a bulbous swell, and is usually capped with a silver butt cap. Also accepted in this description are the "fish tail" butts which have the more common shape of the holster pistols of the period. This type was also capped in silver, steel, brass or in a combination of these metals. The early Queen Anne pistols occasionally may be found with rifled barrels, but the majority have smooth bores.

http://americansocietyofarmscollect...28_Chalapis.pdf

As long as we are talking about Queen Anne "style". What do you think of this Queen Anne Carbine?

M ELEY · 30th April 2015, 01:27 AM

Incredible piece, indeed! Amazing that breech loaders were around from such an early start...

If those Brits running the Am Rev War hadn't been so stubborn to give up their muzzle loaders for breech, there might have been a very different outcome to the War for Independence! The soldiers wanted them, but the higher brass stuck with the tried and true Brown Bess.

dana_w · 30th April 2015, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Incredible piece, indeed! Amazing that breech loaders were around from such an early start...

They even had cartridge based self priming long guns that could fire ball or shot. This one was made by the same maker as the Queen Anne Carbine shown above, Henry Delaney, circa 1720.

M ELEY · 1st May 2015, 02:15 AM

Another spectacular example! Too bad we don't have one in our collections, eh?

dana_w · 1st May 2015, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Another spectacular example! Too bad we don't have one in our collections, eh?

I got your original post via email 'Cap'n Mark', and yes these two as well as the one from my avatar are all in my collection. I just can't take any credit. I inherited most of the collection from my Dad. Sure do miss him.

M ELEY · 2nd May 2015, 03:24 AM

Sorry for your loss, but your father had spectacular taste! These are museum pieces, for sure! Thanks for posting them.

27th April 2010, 03:01 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A few sundry pirate items... Arrrr... Sorry, couldn't resist. Had some rare time on my hands, so I thought I'd take a pic of a couple items. Here we have a Queen Ann style cannon barrel pocket pistol. Despite its size, it was a .45 cal! Two types existed of this pistol, with this being the true "pocket" size. A favorite of sea captains who carried them in their great coats while visiting the local port taverns. They likewise saw sea service on privateers. This one dates to circa 1770. The other item is a grenado, from which the hand grenade we all know descended from. It was small enough to store in buckets and carried up into the Great Tops. The hole would have had a fuse thrust through a wooden tube/plug. These things really could turn the tide of a successful boarding. During John Paul Jones great naval fight off Flamborough Head, the battle was won by a sailor in the rigging dropping handfuls of these on the British ship's deck. This specimen still has the congealed powder/explosive visible down the hole. Wouldn't want to throw this one in a fireplace- Attached Images

27th April 2015, 10:44 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Pirates aplenty! Here's a smallsword, as carried by Spanish naval officers among others. The large pas d'ane, double kidney-shaped guard and ovoid pommel leads me to believe its mid to late 18th? Despite their dainty appearance, these swords descended from the rapiers and many still possessed lethal colichemarde blades for defense... Attached Images Last edited by David; 28th April 2015 at 12:46 AM.

29th April 2015, 12:01 AM	#16
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	John Chalapis talks about some of the classification problems in his American Society of Arms Collectors article. Keep in mind he was writing many years before Burgoyne's book was published. To my knowledge there has been comparatively little information written to describe and clarify the Queen Anne pistol. I am sure that all of you have a visual idea of a Queen Anne, but if you are asked to describe it, it becomes very difficult. For every positive statement that can be made about the Queen Anne pistol, a counter statement can be made. For example: "All Queen Anne pistols have turn off barrels." There are many examples that do not screw off (see figure 1). "The lock is always integral with the Breech." I have several examples with detachable side locks (see figures 2 and 3). "The barrel is always cannon shaped at the muzzle." I have seen Queen Anne pistols with large flared muzzles, which could be called blunderbuss Queen Annes. So, therefore, my description will not refer to the exception, but to the general rule of Queen Anne pistols. The classic Queen Anne pistol may be said to be a breech loaded pistol - turn(screw) off barrel - the lock is integral with the breech- the cock is located on the side of the lock and generally has no wood forward of the lock (see figures 4,5, and 6). The butt of the grip has a slight curve forward terminating in a bulbous swell, and is usually capped with a silver butt cap. Also accepted in this description are the "fish tail" butts which have the more common shape of the holster pistols of the period. This type was also capped in silver, steel, brass or in a combination of these metals. The early Queen Anne pistols occasionally may be found with rifled barrels, but the majority have smooth bores. http://americansocietyofarmscollect...28_Chalapis.pdf As long as we are talking about Queen Anne "style". What do you think of this Queen Anne Carbine? Attached Images Last edited by dana_w; 29th April 2015 at 02:12 AM.

27th April 2010, 03:09 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Don't drop it either ! Nice pistol .

27th April 2010, 04:00 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Pistol in some respects (especially the handle) reminds me of the Scottish pistol. Little grenade reminds me of a small boweling ball in looks. Wonder what it would do to 10 pins!

27th April 2010, 06:31 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks, gents, for the compliments on the gun. I think the silver wirework was something seen on some Scot pistols? Ahh, well bowling with one of these, you never have to worry about getting a split.

27th April 2010, 02:05 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Can the barrel be unscrewed? And yes, BP can remain active for centuries, the coarser the grain, the longer its life. Best M

27th April 2010, 04:07 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Manuel, Yes, these type barrels are meant to be un-screwed using a special wench tool which I unfortunately don't possess at the moment. I had thought about using a tool wrapped in cloth so as not to marr the barrel, but I didn't want to risk it. Yes, it was only several years ago that an esteemed collector of Civil War munitions was killed when he was cutting into an old Dahlgren shell, I believe? It is a popular thing to have some of these old shell casings cut in half, but of course, extremely dangerous unless you know what you are doing!!

27th April 2010, 04:41 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Shellfishing can be dangerous : http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pb...4/NEWS/4240317

28th April 2015, 03:47 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks for the proper terminology, Dana. I had always wondered about that screw barrel pistols continued use far longer than the so called Queen Anne types...

28th April 2015, 05:53 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	I would point out here that 'Cap'n Mark' was using the term 'Queen Anne' 'contextually' I believe, to describe this small but potent 'pocket cannon'. As a brilliant author of tales of the 'Golden Age of Piracy' his thoughts naturally are of these times particularly during the reign of Queen Anne ( many pirates had allegiance to her despite their outlaw ways, i.e Blackbeard's ship the Queen Annes Revenge). It would seem that while the 'golden age' had long passed, the traditions and activities of 'piracy' continued well into the 18th century, as did the 'Spanish Main', as one of the driving forces in these pursuits . In the many years of collecting and studying the arms used in these colorful times, one may be allowed a bit of latitude in my opinion in describing the arms in that sense . As Burgoyne states ("The Queen Anne Pistol" 1660-1780", 2002, p.52), "...the boxlock was a logical development of the side cock Queen Anne style pistol". Perhaps the date range covered in this outstanding reference which includes the period of the pistol Mark has shown (1770) also would allow the term to be inferred in this sense. Actually he describes the pistol as Queen Anne 'style' in the same manner as Burgoyne. Naturally, the later pistols in Burgoyne are properly termed 'boxlock',but for our moments venturing into the literary world of piracy ("Treasure Island" was set in the 1750s) , we might consider a pirate captain with one of these in his coat pocket as Mark describes........and he may well have recalled the times of Queen Anne. I think there's still a bit of 'romantic ' in most of us old sea dogs!!

28th April 2015, 06:13 PM	#14
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Nice pistol Mark, and good to see a nautical thread again. I'm also looking forward to the book publication - sounds like a good yarn. CC.

28th April 2015, 08:22 PM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Dana, thanks for the exceptional thread. I like your avatar! Thank you, Jim and CC, for your comments. I think Dana's information is correct in the technical sense and I appreciated the clarification. Jim, you do point out the fact that these awesome screw barrels continued to be called 'Queen Anne style' pistols, a fact I've also encountered over the years. The cannon-type barrel pistols certainly create visual pictures of sea captains and piracy. As mentioned in my original thread, they were popular with captains and officers, carried in their 'great coat pockets' for protection. P.S. CC, I'm all out of items to post and hope you can add to the thread! I also miss the nautical items!

30th April 2015, 01:27 AM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Incredible piece, indeed! Amazing that breech loaders were around from such an early start... If those Brits running the Am Rev War hadn't been so stubborn to give up their muzzle loaders for breech, there might have been a very different outcome to the War for Independence! The soldiers wanted them, but the higher brass stuck with the tried and true Brown Bess.

1st May 2015, 02:15 AM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Another spectacular example! Too bad we don't have one in our collections, eh?

2nd May 2015, 03:24 AM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Sorry for your loss, but your father had spectacular taste! These are museum pieces, for sure! Thanks for posting them.