A Kindjal and a Quadra

drac2k · 15th May 2019, 06:35 PM

I recently acquired these 2 swords; are the Georgian?

ariel · 16th May 2019, 03:52 AM

My guess both are Persian. You may have to look at the coins.

drac2k · 16th May 2019, 04:05 AM

On the coins, I can only see a floral wreath, a crown on the top and an "S," on the right-hand side. The ones on the underside are completely worn beyond the point of recognition.
Thanks for the information that it is a Persian sword.

ariel · 16th May 2019, 04:38 AM

I understand the reason why you attribute them ( qaddara in particular) to Georgia: duck heads. It is a good observation, but this detail was used in Persia as well. Kirill Rivkin taught us that qaddara originated in Azerbaijan, South Caucasus, and migrated from there to Iran to be used primarily as a ceremonial implement during Ashura processions. I also remember reading somewhere that they might have been used by village policemen.

There is a very similar weapon in Eastern Georgia ( Kakheti), a short sword made of a broken saber blade: Sabarkali. It also had a “ kindjal” handle. It would not be out of court that Kakheti Sabarkali was a predecessor of the Azeri and, subsequently, the Iranian qaddara.
Here is the address of a paper about Sabarkali’s cousin: Khevsurian Dashna by a great guy from Georgia, Vakhtang Kiziria, who taught us about rare Georgian weapons.

http://www.academia.edu/1917231/Khevsuruli_dashna

Also, go to Search and type Dashna. I showed there my Kakhetian Sabarkali.

Kubur · 16th May 2019, 11:28 AM

I don't know about the first one but the second one is Persian.
Not only the coins but also the inscription.

drac2k · 16th May 2019, 02:26 PM

Thank you both for your responses.
Ariel, I found the article that you recommended to be very informative. What I was able to conclude in regards to the Dashna is the "what came first principle, the chicken or the egg."The Dashnar is stated as being of Persian origin, but it was also used by Khevsurian warriors. It also alludes to the fact that Georgian And Circassian warriors fought in Iran as mercenaries, and may have introduced the weapon to the Persians at that time.
I do not think that the weapon is a true dashna because the text states that the weapon is double-edged and this one isn't(even though it has a false edge on the last 6 inches, which according to the article would have allowed it to be used in the Khevsurian style of fighting). Next, it stated that the Dashnas were usually made from broken swords; based on the fullers and the construction of this weapon, I don't believe it to be the case. Finally, I re-examined the coins with a magnifying glass and found that the image was not an "S," but the tail of a lion and on the opposite side an arm holding a sabre, which would indicate it to be Persian.
In conclusion, you nailed it as being Persian and I think with heavy Khevsurian influences; I will re-read the article again to see what I missed the first time.

kronckew · 16th May 2019, 09:26 PM

You may find this of interest, if you haven't seen it before. Khevsurli of all ages with sharp pointy things like yours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzaRUQ7_7cA

My khevsurli pranguli, also see Here
They still make/use them. there is an anecdote in that thread about the khevsuli getting a message from the Tsar asking for volunteers in 1918, they sharpened their swords, put on their best mail armour, grabbed their lances and headed for the war. The The only Pass out was blocked by snow, so they had to wait until spring to get there, late. I gather they missed it.

TVV · 16th May 2019, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

They still make them.

They do indeed.

15th May 2019, 06:35 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	A Kindjal and a Quadra I recently acquired these 2 swords; are the Georgian? Attached Images

16th May 2019, 09:26 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	You may find this of interest, if you haven't seen it before. Khevsurli of all ages with sharp pointy things like yours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzaRUQ7_7cA My khevsurli pranguli, also see Here They still make/use them. there is an anecdote in that thread about the khevsuli getting a message from the Tsar asking for volunteers in 1918, they sharpened their swords, put on their best mail armour, grabbed their lances and headed for the war. The The only Pass out was blocked by snow, so they had to wait until spring to get there, late. I gather they missed it. Attached Images

16th May 2019, 03:52 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My guess both are Persian. You may have to look at the coins.

16th May 2019, 04:05 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	On the coins, I can only see a floral wreath, a crown on the top and an "S," on the right-hand side. The ones on the underside are completely worn beyond the point of recognition. Thanks for the information that it is a Persian sword.

16th May 2019, 04:38 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I understand the reason why you attribute them ( qaddara in particular) to Georgia: duck heads. It is a good observation, but this detail was used in Persia as well. Kirill Rivkin taught us that qaddara originated in Azerbaijan, South Caucasus, and migrated from there to Iran to be used primarily as a ceremonial implement during Ashura processions. I also remember reading somewhere that they might have been used by village policemen. There is a very similar weapon in Eastern Georgia ( Kakheti), a short sword made of a broken saber blade: Sabarkali. It also had a “ kindjal” handle. It would not be out of court that Kakheti Sabarkali was a predecessor of the Azeri and, subsequently, the Iranian qaddara. Here is the address of a paper about Sabarkali’s cousin: Khevsurian Dashna by a great guy from Georgia, Vakhtang Kiziria, who taught us about rare Georgian weapons. http://www.academia.edu/1917231/Khevsuruli_dashna Also, go to Search and type Dashna. I showed there my Kakhetian Sabarkali.

16th May 2019, 11:28 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I don't know about the first one but the second one is Persian. Not only the coins but also the inscription.

16th May 2019, 02:26 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thank you both for your responses. Ariel, I found the article that you recommended to be very informative. What I was able to conclude in regards to the Dashna is the "what came first principle, the chicken or the egg."The Dashnar is stated as being of Persian origin, but it was also used by Khevsurian warriors. It also alludes to the fact that Georgian And Circassian warriors fought in Iran as mercenaries, and may have introduced the weapon to the Persians at that time. I do not think that the weapon is a true dashna because the text states that the weapon is double-edged and this one isn't(even though it has a false edge on the last 6 inches, which according to the article would have allowed it to be used in the Khevsurian style of fighting). Next, it stated that the Dashnas were usually made from broken swords; based on the fullers and the construction of this weapon, I don't believe it to be the case. Finally, I re-examined the coins with a magnifying glass and found that the image was not an "S," but the tail of a lion and on the opposite side an arm holding a sabre, which would indicate it to be Persian. In conclusion, you nailed it as being Persian and I think with heavy Khevsurian influences; I will re-read the article again to see what I missed the first time.