Identification - Korea GI bringback

DaveA · 9th October 2013, 04:40 PM

Hello All,

A friend has asked me to help him identify a sword. His father brought this back from Korea after serving there in the 50's. Not my area of study, but I'm guessing this is related to either the Japanese occupation or Chinese participation in the later conflict.

Thoughts?

Best Regards,

David A.

AJ1356 · 9th October 2013, 05:04 PM

It look European to me, after all Korea was the first UN mission.

DaveA · 9th October 2013, 05:23 PM

Could this be a Japanese Police sword? See:

Japanese Military Swords II
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/civilian.htm

Rich · 9th October 2013, 06:59 PM

Yes, Japanese military sword.

Rich

trenchwarfare · 9th October 2013, 07:20 PM

Chinese Nationalists, or possibly Manchukkuo officer's sword. Copied from Japanese patterns. Shows navy influence. Note the five petal plum blossom, as apposed to the five, of ten petal sakura (cherry blossom) used on Japanese swords.

DaveA · 10th October 2013, 04:54 AM

Note the similarity of the hilt design to the sword shown here, identified as Japanese army officer: WWIII Japanese Military Collectibles

and here: Japanese Military Swords Scroll down to the section on "Kyu-gunto" swords and the discussion of army vs. navy backstraps. Also, the scabbard with a single ring is identical to the one in my pictures.

Is it a plum blossom or a cherry blossom?

How would a Nationalist Chinese sword end up in Korea in the 1950's, to be brought back by an American GI? What specific indicators do you see to suggest this is Nationalist Chinese vs. Japanese?

Thanks for taking a look!

Best Regards,

David

Montino Bourbon · 10th October 2013, 05:03 AM

WW2

trenchwarfare · 10th October 2013, 06:23 AM

[QUOTE=DaveA]Note the similarity of the hilt design to the sword shown here, identified as Japanese army officer: WWIII Japanese Military Collectibles

and here: Japanese Military Swords Scroll down to the section on "Kyu-gunto" swords and the discussion of army vs. navy backstraps. Also, the scabbard with a single ring is identical to the one in my pictures.

Is it a plum blossom or a cherry blossom?

How would a Nationalist Chinese sword end up in Korea in the 1950's, to be brought back by an American GI? What specific indicators do you see to suggest this is Nationalist Chinese vs. Japanese?

Thanks for taking a look!

Best Regards,

David[/QUOTE
The sword in the first link, is CHINESE!!! The Type 19 Kyu Gunto in the second link is similar, but not identical. Chinese swords, were copied from Japanese swords. Japan defeated China, in the 1890s. Chosen (Korea) was acquired with the defeat of Russia, in 1905. Manchuria (Manchukkuo), was annexed in 1910. Lots of Japanese influence throughout the region, for a long time. After examining many Japanese, and Chinese swords, there is a huge difference between cherry, and plum blossoms.

As to how a GI in 1950 got his hands on a Nationalist sword... The Maoist government was only two years old. Any weapon usable, was put to use. Even if only a badge of rank.

Specific indicators: Decorations on the hilt, are very crude, and lack definition. Style of the blade, and scabbard, are not typically Japanese. Plating on the scabbard and blade, are very thin, and flakey. If you study Chinese swords,, and daggers, you will find no two alike.

DaveA · 10th October 2013, 01:36 PM

Many thanks for the information. It makes sense for there to be substantial Japanese influence. I'm going to search for examples of plum and cherry blossoms so I can better understand what to look for.

David

trenchwarfare · 10th October 2013, 05:20 PM

Information on Chinese swords and daggers is very splotchy. There are some limited publications on the subject, but they leave as many questions as answers. Add to the mix, copies of Japanese blades, and myriads of local designs well...

I've corresponded with people who have been to the national military museum in Beijing. They say, there's no two swords, or dagger just alike.

I had a sword once, that was a sword in form only. The blade was as thin as a feeler gauge blade. Just enough to keep it in the scabbard. Trying to buy Chinese blades on line, is a nightmare. There are tons of fakes, and fantasies. When I first got on Ebay in 2000, the daggers could be had for $20.00, and the swords for $40.00. Now, they're ten times that, and more. And, you can't tell the real from the fake. They are a fascinating study.

fearn · 11th October 2013, 06:30 PM

It's more than WW2. Japan colonized Korea from 1910 to 1945, and Manchuria from 1932-1945. The Japanese police were quite active in these times, and their retreat in 1945 was rather precipitous. In addition, Korea nationalists fought with the communist Chinese against the Japanese throughout WW2 (and indeed previously)

Given this mixed history, I'm unsurprised that a Japanese, or Japanese-style, blade, would turn up in Korea in the 1950s.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

M ELEY · 12th October 2013, 12:22 PM

I agree with Trenchwarfare on this one. I've owned Japanese kai gunto Army dress swords and police swords complete with family mon on hilt. The Chinese were copying this style for quite awhile. If you ever get a chance to look at a Chinese Pilot's/Air Cadet's dagger, you see many of the Japanese influences, but more crude and typically flaking to the chrome, simpler depictions/line work to the scabbards, etc. It doesn't make the piece any less desirable to me, as I'm into the history of it. WWII era.

9th October 2013, 04:40 PM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Identification - Korea GI bringback Hello All, A friend has asked me to help him identify a sword. His father brought this back from Korea after serving there in the 50's. Not my area of study, but I'm guessing this is related to either the Japanese occupation or Chinese participation in the later conflict. Thoughts? Best Regards, David A. Attached Images

9th October 2013, 05:23 PM	#3
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Japanese? Could this be a Japanese Police sword? See: Japanese Military Swords II http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/civilian.htm

10th October 2013, 04:54 AM	#6
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	For Comparison - two similar swords online Note the similarity of the hilt design to the sword shown here, identified as Japanese army officer: WWIII Japanese Military Collectibles and here: Japanese Military Swords Scroll down to the section on "Kyu-gunto" swords and the discussion of army vs. navy backstraps. Also, the scabbard with a single ring is identical to the one in my pictures. Is it a plum blossom or a cherry blossom? How would a Nationalist Chinese sword end up in Korea in the 1950's, to be brought back by an American GI? What specific indicators do you see to suggest this is Nationalist Chinese vs. Japanese? Thanks for taking a look! Best Regards, David

10th October 2013, 05:03 AM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Japanese Kyugunto with D guard WW2

10th October 2013, 01:36 PM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	China, Japan, Korea Many thanks for the information. It makes sense for there to be substantial Japanese influence. I'm going to search for examples of plum and cherry blossoms so I can better understand what to look for. David

9th October 2013, 05:04 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	It look European to me, after all Korea was the first UN mission.

9th October 2013, 06:59 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yes, Japanese military sword. Rich

9th October 2013, 07:20 PM	#5
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Chinese Nationalists, or possibly Manchukkuo officer's sword. Copied from Japanese patterns. Shows navy influence. Note the five petal plum blossom, as apposed to the five, of ten petal sakura (cherry blossom) used on Japanese swords.

10th October 2013, 06:23 AM	#8
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	[QUOTE=DaveA]Note the similarity of the hilt design to the sword shown here, identified as Japanese army officer: WWIII Japanese Military Collectibles and here: Japanese Military Swords Scroll down to the section on "Kyu-gunto" swords and the discussion of army vs. navy backstraps. Also, the scabbard with a single ring is identical to the one in my pictures. Is it a plum blossom or a cherry blossom? How would a Nationalist Chinese sword end up in Korea in the 1950's, to be brought back by an American GI? What specific indicators do you see to suggest this is Nationalist Chinese vs. Japanese? Thanks for taking a look! Best Regards, David[/QUOTE The sword in the first link, is CHINESE!!! The Type 19 Kyu Gunto in the second link is similar, but not identical. Chinese swords, were copied from Japanese swords. Japan defeated China, in the 1890s. Chosen (Korea) was acquired with the defeat of Russia, in 1905. Manchuria (Manchukkuo), was annexed in 1910. Lots of Japanese influence throughout the region, for a long time. After examining many Japanese, and Chinese swords, there is a huge difference between cherry, and plum blossoms. As to how a GI in 1950 got his hands on a Nationalist sword... The Maoist government was only two years old. Any weapon usable, was put to use. Even if only a badge of rank. Specific indicators: Decorations on the hilt, are very crude, and lack definition. Style of the blade, and scabbard, are not typically Japanese. Plating on the scabbard and blade, are very thin, and flakey. If you study Chinese swords,, and daggers, you will find no two alike.

10th October 2013, 05:20 PM	#10
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Information on Chinese swords and daggers is very splotchy. There are some limited publications on the subject, but they leave as many questions as answers. Add to the mix, copies of Japanese blades, and myriads of local designs well... I've corresponded with people who have been to the national military museum in Beijing. They say, there's no two swords, or dagger just alike. I had a sword once, that was a sword in form only. The blade was as thin as a feeler gauge blade. Just enough to keep it in the scabbard. Trying to buy Chinese blades on line, is a nightmare. There are tons of fakes, and fantasies. When I first got on Ebay in 2000, the daggers could be had for $20.00, and the swords for $40.00. Now, they're ten times that, and more. And, you can't tell the real from the fake. They are a fascinating study.

11th October 2013, 06:30 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It's more than WW2. Japan colonized Korea from 1910 to 1945, and Manchuria from 1932-1945. The Japanese police were quite active in these times, and their retreat in 1945 was rather precipitous. In addition, Korea nationalists fought with the communist Chinese against the Japanese throughout WW2 (and indeed previously) Given this mixed history, I'm unsurprised that a Japanese, or Japanese-style, blade, would turn up in Korea in the 1950s. My 0.00002 cents, F

12th October 2013, 12:22 PM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	I agree with Trenchwarfare on this one. I've owned Japanese kai gunto Army dress swords and police swords complete with family mon on hilt. The Chinese were copying this style for quite awhile. If you ever get a chance to look at a Chinese Pilot's/Air Cadet's dagger, you see many of the Japanese influences, but more crude and typically flaking to the chrome, simpler depictions/line work to the scabbards, etc. It doesn't make the piece any less desirable to me, as I'm into the history of it. WWII era.