May i query again on this lance?

fernando · 8th May 2006, 09:04 PM

I have shown this lance head in this Forum, nearly a year ago, but i wasn't lucky at getting any coments posted.
Still i wonder how hold is this blade forging tecnique, as i am not certain about this example's age.
It came with a part of its original shaft, judging by its rusticity and worm degradation.
The other day, some local person said it could be a 17th century Hunting Lance. Is this any plausible?
Would some of the Members coment on this blade making system, and what period it covered?
I would be so much obliged.
Kind regards
fernando

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2006, 10:57 PM

Hi Fernando,

From what you write, you don’t have the whole shaft, so we don’t know how long it has been. I think it must have been fairly short – but I am no specialist at all, so take it with a grant of salt. If you are willing to give up a little part of the rest of the shaft, specialists can give you an age and tell you what kind of wood the shaft was made of. Thinking that you are not too fond of this, we are out guessing. I seem to remember that I have seen Danish spears from the 17th c. like this one, used for wild boar hunting.

Was it an eath found????

Jens

Mark · 8th May 2006, 11:25 PM

It looks like there is a hole through the head/shaft below the pins attaching the head to the shaft, where perhaps a cross-bar once existed. If there is evidence of a cross-bar, I would say this is conclusive of it being a hunting spear. If you have more than a half meter or so of the shaft, and there is no cross-bar or evidence of one, I would say it is not a hunting spear (at least not a European one).

The cross-bar is necessary in a hunting spear to prevent the game (a charging boar, for example) from "running up" the spear and getting at the hunter. A war spear, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate as far as possible and so has no cross-bar.

fernando · 9th May 2006, 01:16 AM

Thank you Jens.
The remaining haft measures 67 centimetrs. thickness over 4 centimeters.
Very pertinent question, Mark. I too considered this could be an Ascuma ( I can't find the translation ), much used over here for wild boar, back in those times.
I learnt these lances mostly had a travinca ( cross bar ) either of iron in the blade socket or, at a prior stage, made in bone, held in the haft .
There are indeed "too many" holes in the socket of this blade, but i can not come to conclusions, as i lack an experienced eye. The pair of holes occupied by those bizarre and apparently useless nails is not placed in an opposite position, and have a very narrow diameter, not seemingly ideal to hold the cross bar, as eventually the one only hole could be the actual fixing mode.
On the other hand, and assuming this is one of those hunting Ascumas, we are admiting this lance could even be older than 17th century.
What do you make of this ?
Thanks
fernando

Henk · 9th May 2006, 08:35 PM

It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it.

I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 08:47 PM

It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

fernando · 10th May 2006, 09:05 PM

Thank you Henk.
The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion.
Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation.
I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing !
When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ?
Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here.
But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age.
Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ?
Thanks once more
fernando

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2006, 09:15 PM

Fernando look at the arrow heads in the last thread by Katana. i am sure there is a link here. The continuity of metalwork and style of point.

fernando · 17th May 2006, 12:21 AM

Thank you Tim.
The proportions of Katana's pieces are rather small, for the matter. My lance is a heavy duty thing. Remember the shaft is a 40 m/m thick staff. The blade is 70 m/m wide.
Here i show it in its real size, and the possible manner/s it was built.
I just don't see it being other than european.
fernando

Tim Simmons · 17th May 2006, 08:25 AM

Yes I think I got stuck down the wrong track.

8th May 2006, 09:04 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	May i query again on this lance? I have shown this lance head in this Forum, nearly a year ago, but i wasn't lucky at getting any coments posted. Still i wonder how hold is this blade forging tecnique, as i am not certain about this example's age. It came with a part of its original shaft, judging by its rusticity and worm degradation. The other day, some local person said it could be a 17th century Hunting Lance. Is this any plausible? Would some of the Members coment on this blade making system, and what period it covered? I would be so much obliged. Kind regards fernando Attached Images

9th May 2006, 01:16 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jens. The remaining haft measures 67 centimetrs. thickness over 4 centimeters. Very pertinent question, Mark. I too considered this could be an Ascuma ( I can't find the translation ), much used over here for wild boar, back in those times. I learnt these lances mostly had a travinca ( cross bar ) either of iron in the blade socket or, at a prior stage, made in bone, held in the haft . There are indeed "too many" holes in the socket of this blade, but i can not come to conclusions, as i lack an experienced eye. The pair of holes occupied by those bizarre and apparently useless nails is not placed in an opposite position, and have a very narrow diameter, not seemingly ideal to hold the cross bar, as eventually the one only hole could be the actual fixing mode. On the other hand, and assuming this is one of those hunting Ascumas, we are admiting this lance could even be older than 17th century. What do you make of this ? Thanks fernando Attached Images

17th May 2006, 12:21 AM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Tim. The proportions of Katana's pieces are rather small, for the matter. My lance is a heavy duty thing. Remember the shaft is a 40 m/m thick staff. The blade is 70 m/m wide. Here i show it in its real size, and the possible manner/s it was built. I just don't see it being other than european. fernando Attached Images

8th May 2006, 10:57 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, From what you write, you don’t have the whole shaft, so we don’t know how long it has been. I think it must have been fairly short – but I am no specialist at all, so take it with a grant of salt. If you are willing to give up a little part of the rest of the shaft, specialists can give you an age and tell you what kind of wood the shaft was made of. Thinking that you are not too fond of this, we are out guessing. I seem to remember that I have seen Danish spears from the 17th c. like this one, used for wild boar hunting. Was it an eath found???? Jens

8th May 2006, 11:25 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It looks like there is a hole through the head/shaft below the pins attaching the head to the shaft, where perhaps a cross-bar once existed. If there is evidence of a cross-bar, I would say this is conclusive of it being a hunting spear. If you have more than a half meter or so of the shaft, and there is no cross-bar or evidence of one, I would say it is not a hunting spear (at least not a European one). The cross-bar is necessary in a hunting spear to prevent the game (a charging boar, for example) from "running up" the spear and getting at the hunter. A war spear, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate as far as possible and so has no cross-bar.

9th May 2006, 08:35 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it. I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

9th May 2006, 08:47 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

10th May 2006, 09:05 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Henk. The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion. Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation. I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing ! When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ? Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here. But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age. Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ? Thanks once more fernando

16th May 2006, 09:15 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fernando look at the arrow heads in the last thread by Katana. i am sure there is a link here. The continuity of metalwork and style of point.

17th May 2006, 08:25 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes I think I got stuck down the wrong track.