EARLY SKETCH OF LUTAO SPEARDANCE

zamboanga · 4th April 2005, 03:24 AM

Found this one at: http://www.hmschallenger.org/

The H.M.S Challenger expedition was the first round the world oceanographic voyage in 1872-1875. Among the places visited by the ship was my City spelled as Samboangan in the book.

Scanned images and pages of the original narrative volumes included this picture of Lutao spear dance. The spears' profile appear to be sangkil-sulayang and not budiaks.

Entire scanned pages of the article on the ship's Zamboanga leg are highlighted in zamboanga's main site : www.zamboanga.com

Bill M · 4th April 2005, 02:45 PM

WOW! Those guys had some BIG shields!

tom hyle · 4th April 2005, 05:36 PM

Well, they tend to be small guys, but yeah, even in absolute terms the Moro roundshield is big; fairly comparable to the hoplon, probably as large as any shield for hand-to-hand fighting, and seems fairly distinct within the region; all the other oceanic SE Asian shields I can recall are either long or else small. The shield is shown with straps, while those I've seen had wooden grips, though they do go on the arm similarly. How much direct trading have Moros traditionally done with Muslim E Africans? The use of the barbed spear for hand-to-hand combat is interesting (presumeably this dance is an imitation of combat), and is also seen out of Luzon. The kris both seem rather small, and the tips of their sheaths don't look right. Some of these features may be fanciful, and that's always a greater danger with drawings than photos. Thanks for the pic.

fearn · 4th April 2005, 09:18 PM

Hi Tom,

If you have Donn Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia (or whatever the title is), check out the picture of the warriors from Nias. They have pretty large shields as well, although they aren't as large as these Moro monsters.

Fearn

tom hyle · 4th April 2005, 11:09 PM

I don't have it, but thanks for the info. The Nias shields are round?

Battara · 5th April 2005, 02:23 AM

Zamboanga, what is a sangkil-sulayang spear?

zamboanga · 5th April 2005, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Zamboanga, what is a sangkil-sulayang spear?

A sangkil is the rarer spear compared to the budiak. It comes in two versions, the ordinary sangkil which has one side barbed (thanks for the term, tom) and the sangkil-sulayang which comes with both sides barbed.

To the tausugs and samals the sangkil can be both a fishing tool (both tribes lived off the sea) and a weapon. To the yakans, who were land-based, the sangkil is said to be the favored weapon for ambush because of the barbs.

I posted this picture of samal sangkils (the two at the bottom) in another thread:

zamboanga · 5th April 2005, 04:11 AM

part of the digitized narratives:

fearn · 5th April 2005, 06:17 PM

Hi Tom,

Nias shields are leaf shaped (literally), with a long stem on the bottom and a wooden boss for punching out their opponents. From the pictures, they reach roughly from shoulder to ground and are several feet across.

Hi Zamboanga,

From your picture, it looks like the Sangkil-sulayang is a harpoon, meaning that the head is detachable from the shaft and attached to a line that is attached to the shaft. Is this correct?

Fearn

Bill · 5th April 2005, 09:58 PM

this will likely open a can of worms, not sure article about "Moro" is quite right. Not comfortable with the lable "Moro", but I guess Cato made it a term acceptable in referance to certain swords. from as much as i have found, most of the PI was controled by Brunei especially the Tausug untill 1578(?) when the Spanish attacked Brunei. After that is when it seems the Tausug alligned with the Sultans of Ternate & Makassar against the Spanish.

zamboanga · 13th April 2005, 10:41 AM

fearn,

you are right about the sangkil head (at least the ones being used for fishing) being detachable.

bill,

I think the writer of the article, given the circumstances at that time, was not able to verify or double check the information passed on to him.

but, here's a comprehensive link on the history of the Sulu Sultanate: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Tagalog/M..._the_royal.htm

lutao, by the way is part of the local dialect which means "to float" - in reference to the sea-going ways of the tausugs, samals, badjaos, etc.

Bill · 13th April 2005, 04:20 PM

Zamboanga, thanks for the link, it also looks to have some great referances, if I ever read what I already have. No offence to the folks here with Philippine heritage, but I think Brunei has to have had great influence on what we refer to as Moro swords. Pigafetta seemed to be impressed at the amount or arms there; where usually in the PI, knives & iron were in demand. Also the first Portuguese in Sulawesi find no interest in thier swords or iron, but the locals are trying to sell them thiers.

Battara · 13th April 2005, 05:12 PM

No offense taken for me, Bill. I agree, especially in the earlier days. When it comes to the later period, I may be inclined towards Federico's position of Sulu influence. Certainly, intermingling of influences from the Sultanates of Brunei, Maguindanao, and Sulu (even possibly Ternate) are not surprising due to proximity of cultures and common investment into Islam.

Federico · 14th April 2005, 05:19 AM

Ill throw in a shocker, I agree with you Bill, Brunei in the early days (pre-Spanish to early Spanish invasion) held great sway over PI. Though, I would temper that statement while they had great influence (I believe if I remember correctly the Sultans of Sulu and the Sultan of Tondo, which soon becomes the city of Manila, were both directly and closely, eg. one relative apart vs the general inter-relation among Malay royalty,related to the Sultan of Brunei), they were not in complete direct control.

Of course this relationship changes over time.

4th April 2005, 03:24 AM	#1
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	EARLY SKETCH OF LUTAO SPEARDANCE Found this one at: http://www.hmschallenger.org/ The H.M.S Challenger expedition was the first round the world oceanographic voyage in 1872-1875. Among the places visited by the ship was my City spelled as Samboangan in the book. Scanned images and pages of the original narrative volumes included this picture of Lutao spear dance. The spears' profile appear to be sangkil-sulayang and not budiaks. Entire scanned pages of the article on the ship's Zamboanga leg are highlighted in zamboanga's main site : www.zamboanga.com Attached Images Last edited by zamboanga; 4th April 2005 at 03:36 AM. Reason: grammar

4th April 2005, 05:36 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, they tend to be small guys, but yeah, even in absolute terms the Moro roundshield is big; fairly comparable to the hoplon, probably as large as any shield for hand-to-hand fighting, and seems fairly distinct within the region; all the other oceanic SE Asian shields I can recall are either long or else small. The shield is shown with straps, while those I've seen had wooden grips, though they do go on the arm similarly. How much direct trading have Moros traditionally done with Muslim E Africans? The use of the barbed spear for hand-to-hand combat is interesting (presumeably this dance is an imitation of combat), and is also seen out of Luzon. The kris both seem rather small, and the tips of their sheaths don't look right. Some of these features may be fanciful, and that's always a greater danger with drawings than photos. Thanks for the pic. Last edited by tom hyle; 4th April 2005 at 05:58 PM.

5th April 2005, 04:11 AM	#8
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	part of the digitized narratives: Attached Images

4th April 2005, 02:45 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	WOW! Those guys had some BIG shields!

4th April 2005, 09:18 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tom, If you have Donn Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia (or whatever the title is), check out the picture of the warriors from Nias. They have pretty large shields as well, although they aren't as large as these Moro monsters. Fearn

4th April 2005, 11:09 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't have it, but thanks for the info. The Nias shields are round?

5th April 2005, 02:23 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Zamboanga, what is a sangkil-sulayang spear?

5th April 2005, 06:17 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tom, Nias shields are leaf shaped (literally), with a long stem on the bottom and a wooden boss for punching out their opponents. From the pictures, they reach roughly from shoulder to ground and are several feet across. Hi Zamboanga, From your picture, it looks like the Sangkil-sulayang is a harpoon, meaning that the head is detachable from the shaft and attached to a line that is attached to the shaft. Is this correct? Fearn

5th April 2005, 09:58 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	this will likely open a can of worms, not sure article about "Moro" is quite right. Not comfortable with the lable "Moro", but I guess Cato made it a term acceptable in referance to certain swords. from as much as i have found, most of the PI was controled by Brunei especially the Tausug untill 1578(?) when the Spanish attacked Brunei. After that is when it seems the Tausug alligned with the Sultans of Ternate & Makassar against the Spanish.

13th April 2005, 10:41 AM	#11
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	fearn, you are right about the sangkil head (at least the ones being used for fishing) being detachable. bill, I think the writer of the article, given the circumstances at that time, was not able to verify or double check the information passed on to him. but, here's a comprehensive link on the history of the Sulu Sultanate: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Tagalog/M..._the_royal.htm lutao, by the way is part of the local dialect which means "to float" - in reference to the sea-going ways of the tausugs, samals, badjaos, etc.

13th April 2005, 04:20 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Zamboanga, thanks for the link, it also looks to have some great referances, if I ever read what I already have. No offence to the folks here with Philippine heritage, but I think Brunei has to have had great influence on what we refer to as Moro swords. Pigafetta seemed to be impressed at the amount or arms there; where usually in the PI, knives & iron were in demand. Also the first Portuguese in Sulawesi find no interest in thier swords or iron, but the locals are trying to sell them thiers.

13th April 2005, 05:12 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	No offense taken for me, Bill. I agree, especially in the earlier days. When it comes to the later period, I may be inclined towards Federico's position of Sulu influence. Certainly, intermingling of influences from the Sultanates of Brunei, Maguindanao, and Sulu (even possibly Ternate) are not surprising due to proximity of cultures and common investment into Islam.

14th April 2005, 05:19 AM	#14
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ill throw in a shocker, I agree with you Bill, Brunei in the early days (pre-Spanish to early Spanish invasion) held great sway over PI. Though, I would temper that statement while they had great influence (I believe if I remember correctly the Sultans of Sulu and the Sultan of Tondo, which soon becomes the city of Manila, were both directly and closely, eg. one relative apart vs the general inter-relation among Malay royalty,related to the Sultan of Brunei), they were not in complete direct control. Of course this relationship changes over time.