need some help about my new keris

[auk]

hello here my keris please help me to tell me about it wat kind of keris it is
its in oil becauce it was rusty ,
hope the picture,s will help
greetings auk

[A. G. Maisey]

Do you mean dhapur? geographic origin? tangguh? isi? tuah?

I cannot give positive answers from pictures, only probabilities or sometimes only possibilities, but it is a Javanese keris, probably East Jawa, in the hand it might be classifiable as Majapahit.

That's about as far as I'm prepared to go without much better photos.

[auk]

hello thanks fore the reply i wil try to make better pics
yes i am curious about all informtion i can get about this keris
dhapur geographic origin tangguh isi tuah
thanx again fore the help and information
greetings auk

[David]

Thanks for the additional photos Auk. A very interesting keris. All i can add to what Alan has stated, even with the additional images, is that the dhapur appears to be some form of damar murub, with the three luks appearing at the very end of the blade as they do, but i have never seen one with quite these same features and can only assume that the dhapur here requires some other names to fully describe it. I would still like to see some clear close-ups of the gandik as i am having a hard time figuring out just what the form is here. If it is not simply that the form is eroded by time i do not quite recognize what is supposed to be from the photos. I can't tell if i am looking at a sekar kacang that has been eroded or pushed flat against the blade or if this is meant to represent a human figure as in a keris putut. Also interesting is the deep central fuller of the blade that blade that extends almost to the tip. These are features i have not seen on other damar murub blades. Perhaps Alan has some better ideas with these new photos.

[auk]

Hi david thanx fore the reply i think the keris is verry interesting to nice forms,
i dont think its a putut because like you said is was pushed flat .
the deep central fuller of the blade i like it verry much its verry nice and smooth.
i wil post another foto hope it wil be clear enough to help to identify the keris.
thanks again fore thinking.
greetings auk.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the better pics Auk.

I really cannot add anything to what I've already said, except that based upon what I can see I would not give it a Majapahit classification.

I cannot give it a dhapur, but I am virtually certain it is East Jawa.

Rather a nice thing actually.

[auk]

hello mr maisey thanks fore the replay
wat else can i do or maybe other foto,s so you or others can make a better judge greetings auk.

[Henk]

Could you make a picture frontal of the sekar kacang?

[auk]

Hi henk excuse me wat means sekar kacang
greetings

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry Auk, but there is nothing more I can say about this keris. The form is unusual, but elements of that unusual form indicate to me an East Jawa origin. It is an old keris, but not immensely old, in your original pics the appearance was vaguely Majapahitish, but in the later pics I can see the material clearly, and I am unable to give it a Mojo label. I doubt that there is much more that anybody could say. I suggest that you should be content with having a nice, unusual , old Javanese keris in fairly good condition.

Frankly, I find it difficult to understand exactly what additional information you need. If you have any specific questions we might be able to provide answers.

[auk]

Hi mr maisey thanks again fore the replay
i understand its hard to tell from foto,s wat the unusal aspects are.
you said probily from east java?
hoping i can get more judgement about dhapur? geographic origin? tangguh? isi? tuah wat the keris was ment for i wil try put some more information.
the lengt from top til ganja is 32 cm ganja lenght 8cm the peksi in thin not a thick one and at the end a little twisted also i like to know wat kind of pamor it is meanig etc i have a lot of questions hoping i get some more answer
thanks fore reading and thinking
greetings...

[Henk]

Auk, I mean the right side of your last picture but frontal on the edge.

[auk]

Hi Henk thanks fore the reply hope this picture wil do
Greetings

[tunggulametung]

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

[David]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

hmmm....can can you tell us why you think this is a contemporary keris?
I am also confused by you opinion that "your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one." These seem to be two diametrically opposed opinions in one sentence. Which do you believe, that it has been altered or that it was made this way from day one? I am not sure that i see where it has been altered from the photos provided.
Personally i don't think the workmanship (garap) is that bad. This is not a masterpiece keris by any means but i am in agreement with Alan that it is an nice, old and unusual keris that aside from what appears to be some damage in the gandik area is in pretty good shape (sheath not withstanding). Frankly, i like keris that don't fit clearly into the mold. It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

[David]

Originally Posted by auk

Hi Henk thanks fore the reply hope this picture wil do
Greetings

Actually Auk, i think that a 3/4th viewpoint might be more helpful here than the straight on shot Henk requested.

[auk]

Hi thanks fore the replay i wil add two more foto,s
first i think the top pamor is welded in the iron you can see the twist in it not striacht wat you see when they to file it
second foto i leave it to the specialst
thanks fore the thinking greetings

[Jean]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

Hello Chandra,
Thank you for your interesting opinion and personally I would not discard it too quickly as I also see some signs that this may be a recent or altered piece. I know your experience and as you live in Jakarta you are more familiar with the tricks of the trade than most of us. Personally I find this question of distinguishing between a genuine old blade from a recent and altered one as very difficult and primordial for a collector and any input on tis subject is welcome. So please elaborate more about the observations and findings which make you believe that this is not an old blade, we are listening!
Best regards

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

Yes, this is not a standard Central Javanese dhapur although as said by Chandra it could be called Sepang/ Damar Murub. The ganja sepang is not standard. Additionally the strange kembang kacang and grooves seem reminiscent of the Megantara dapur (see pictures). The maker should have been (or be) a very imaginative guy!
Regards

[auk]

Hello thanks fore the new reply,s
is it helpfull if i post a picture from the peksi
also i was reading some older article of keris and found this on vikingsword
about the keris megantara like jean mentioned i see a little risemble in the blade specialy over the deep central fuller of the blade that blade that extends almost to the tip see the fifth picture on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99755
greetings auk

[David]

I've tried my best to enlarge and enhance this image. Still hard to know anything without this blade in hand.
Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area.

Hi David,
Yes the gandik/ kembang kacang is odd indeed. As Chandra raised the subject of a possibly recent or altered blade I will let him reply first and complement the observations or impressions if needed. I have no definite opinion myself, and just want to exchange with the other forumites about this interesting subject.
Regards

[David]

OK Jean, no worries. I just thought that since you expressed some doubts yourself about this being and an old and/or original blade you might be able to explain your own reasoning. I certainly agree with you that discerning the indicators of an altered blade or new blades made to look old is of great importance to us as collectors.

[Henk]

Yes. David was right. It was too frontal. With these pictures we are quit sure there is no figure of what kind in the gandik.

Hard to classify this keris. I'm with David and Alan. I cann't either subscribe the meaning of tunggulametung. What I see is a very nice old keris. Not a masterpiece, but I love it.
Dhapur has a Damar Murub appearance and the pamor is wos wutah or beras wutah. I have an old dutch book that says when the dhapur cann't be named all different names of the individual parts should be mentioned. In the way tunggulametung did.

Anyway imho a very attractive older keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

In any field of art, or collectables, when the buying public becomes aware that reproductions and forgeries are present in the market place they tend be very cautious in accepting as old and original any piece that fails to fit the pre-determined ideas of what is truly old and original.

This is particularly true of keris. Going back some years there was a very respected and indeed, famous connoisseur of Javanese art, and especially keris who lived in Solo. This gentleman was well known in the keris trade as being a very soft touch for any keris that looked old, original and unusual. As a consequence a little sub-industry grew up that specialised in creating and marketing exactly this type of forgery to this gentleman. At the time this was happening it was knowledge that was well known in the trade, but totally unknown outside the trade. In fact, I doubt that it was even suspected by the mass of keris buyers outside the trade.

Those who are familiar with the greater art market, the world market in paintings and sculpture, will be very familiar with the ideas I am presenting here. Very often there are only one or two people worldwide who are recognised as being reliable identifiers of works that have been prepared with intent to defraud --- and there are many instances on record where even these highly regarded authorities have later changed their mind about something.

With the rise of the Madura and East Jawa artisans, the revival of interest in the keris, and addition of new collectors to the ranks of those who buy keris, there is now a widespread awareness that there are deliberate forgeries in the market place, and very often those forgeries take an unusual form, deliberately created to tempt the buyer.

However, it is a regrettable truth that in the present day world of keris collecting there is a vast well of ignorance. The great holders of knowledge from before WWII are now no longer with us. Most of these men failed to pass their knowledge to the generation that followed, and where that knowledge was passed on, it was incomplete. The senior people of this generation simply do not have the same, or even similar foundations upon which to base their opinions of what is and what is not a legitimate keris.

How many people in today's generation of ahli keris in Jawa have ever heard of Bp. Pawirodihardjo, or know what his name within the keris trade was? If somebody does know who this man was, do they have any idea at all of what he was capable of? Yet this man was probably responsible for more, let us say "misleading" keris than any other person in the period following WWII. His creations were mostly special orders from less than honest dealers, and he was a master of his craft. But even he had limits to what could be done in order to create a forgery. This man moved to a different level quite a few years ago now, and so has his wife, his children are about as distant from the keris trade as it is possible to be, and that is the reason I have no problem with mention of his formal name.

The point I wish to make is this:- it is simply not possible for any person who is not an insider in the keris trade of Central Jawa to know with any degree of certainty what is likely to be a forgery and what is not likely to be a forgery. I use the word "likely" because the only way to be certain is if the forgery was observed whilst in production. It is not possible for any collector, and most second or third level dealers to have any certainty at all in what is and is not a forgery.

Then there is the problem of defining exactly what constitutes a "forgery".

Is a changeling necessarily a forgery, or can it be the result of cultural necessity, or personal belief?

So it is that when an unusual keris is seen, many if not most people err on the side of caution and pronounce it a forgery, or at least a changeling (robahan), but without really understanding the circumstances that can apply in the creation of a changeling.

Of course one way of gaining relative certainty of the authenticity or otherwise of a keris , or other art work, is to know where it came from. If we know that, then we can probably also predict with a fair degree of certainty whether it is, or is not what it purports to be.

After that rather rambling discourse on the intricacies of keris falsification, let me now address a couple of matters relating to this keris under discussion.

The question of dhapur.
At the present time it seems that Jack is as good as his master and anybody at all can create a keris and give it a name.

This is the modern attitude. It is not the traditional attitude.

Within traditional belief, the names of keris forms are locked into Javanese cultural mores. It is not the right, nor the privilege of any person other than a ruler to decree what the name of any keris form may be. I stress the term "Javanese cultural mores". The cultural mores of Indonesia outside the Land of Jawa are in many ways as foreign to Javanese thought as are the cultural mores of London, Paris and Rome.

It is incorrect to combine the names of various dhapurs and claim that by combination of these names we have named the dhapur of a keris that possesses the features of two or more dhapur. This practice is absolutely wrong. We may not do this.

What we can do is to say that an unusual keris has certain features that are similar to the features found in legitimate dhapurs.

In respect of the question of talismanic properties of this keris under discussion, or of any keris for that matter. The tuah of a keris comes in major part from its dhapur. In the absence of being able to give a keris a legitimate dhapur it is very difficult to determine its tuah. A person with psychic powers may be able to give an indication of tuah but it is not possible to do this from a photograph, only from making the acquaintance of the keris.

An adequate description of pamor for this keris is wos wutah.

Is this keris a new production, a changeling, a falsification of some sort, or is it a legitimate keris?

Unless I handled this keris I could not give an answer that I could rationally support, however, based upon the presented photos this is what I think I can see:-

The grain of the pamor follows the luk form

The material has the appearance of older material

The way in which the pamor has been made has the appearance of a traditional manufacturing process

The topographic features of the blade have the appearance of having been put in place at the time of manufacture

The gandhik area may have been altered to create a sepang-like appearance; I am reluctant to regard this as something that removes authenticity from a keris, as it may have been done (if it was done at all) because of personal belief. Consider the talismanic implications of the sepang form. Such an alteration would be unlikely to be done as an attempt to raise value or deceive, a simple cost : benefit analysis will demonstrate this very clearly.

The gonjo is unlikely to be original to the wilah. The material is different to the wilah and the degree of erosion to the underside of the gonjo is not consistent with overall blade erosion.

This keris could have been re-manufactured from a much larger keris, that possibility exists, but the only type of keris that I know of that could give sufficient material to create what we see in this keris is the very large old Tuban keris, and the material in this keris is nothing like old Tuban material.

All of us have opinions, and we are all entitled to our own opinions. However, if we want others to accept our opinion we do need to present evidence or logical argument to support that opinion.

My opinion in respect of this keris is that it is an older keris, most likely from East Jawa, during its life it may have had some alteration carried out on it, this is not certain, it is only a possibility, but if this work was done it was more likely to be in the nature of an expression of belief rather than any attempt to falsify.

I am further of the opinion that what we now see in the body of the keris is original to the keris. I do not know of any older keris form of sufficient size and similar material that would permit the re-manufacture of this keris.

The gonjo appears to be a replacement.

Now my usual qualification:- my opinion could alter if I were to handle this keris; the opinion I have expressed here is based upon what I can see in the photographs.

[auk]

Hello thanks fore the replays and the time you all take to write,thanks
i total agree it is hard to tel from photo,s its not the same as when you hold the blade and feel it,

Mr Maisey your story is verry helpfull i totaly agree your opinion about the old blades reproduction re manufactured in all those years its so much we must look so carefully wat we buy etc.
aditional i wil put some foto,s of the peksi and the gonjo,

Here you can see the peksi is twisted at the end not clear becuse of some rust but its twisted also in th egonjo you see a little hole next to the big hole its square verry tiny i think you can put a little peace of scuare metal in it so the gonjo stays at his place and wont move i just try it wit a verry little peace of wood and yes the gonjo cant move anymore so it seemt to serve as a kind of lock.

Also the gonjo fits perfectly and the blade have a core i can here
hope this wil be helpful in our further quest about this keris.
you all thanks verry much fore thinking
greetings

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, cutting a keyway in the pesi hole of the gonjo is one of the more common ways of fixing a gonjo in place, in fact, its the method I myself have always used on the kerises which I have made. Sometimes we find that a pesi hole will be made a very neat fit to the pesi, and then fixed by using a punch to squeeze the metal in around the pesi. Bugis keris seem to use this method fairly often.

I feel that perhaps these pics of the pesi may give a useful indication of the age of the wilah.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.

The point I wish to make is this:- it is simply not possible for any person who is not an insider in the keris trade of Central Jawa to know with any degree of certainty what is likely to be a forgery and what is not likely to be a forgery. I use the word "likely" because the only way to be certain is if the forgery was observed whilst in production. It is not possible for any collector, and most second or third level dealers to have any certainty at all in what is and is not a forgery.

The gonjo is unlikely to be original to the wilah. The material is different to the wilah and the degree of erosion to the underside of the gonjo is not consistent with overall blade erosion.

This keris could have been re-manufactured from a much larger keris, that possibility exists, but the only type of keris that I know of that could give sufficient material to create what we see in this keris is the very large old Tuban keris, and the material in this keris is nothing like old Tuban material.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for you very interesting and detailed reply and I fully agree with you.
Actually the possible gonjo replacement was the first observation which I made (fancy shape, different metal, and impeccable interface line with the blade) and this seems confirmed by the additional pictures from Auk (rebuilt peksi base, perfect peksi hole, lock).
And I also suspected that the blade may have been re-shaped from a larger one because of the strange gandik and the pamor which fully extends to the edges of the blade.
Is there a way to assess if the luks at the tip are original or not?
Best regards
PS: Sorry, I did not read your last post before sending mine

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that perhaps these pics of the pesi may give a useful indication of the age of the wilah.

Hi Alan,
Could you please elaborate more?
Regards

[auk]

Hi jean thank fore the reply i think the luks at the top are original because the pamor goes with the waves.
i wil send a picture of it hope its clear enough because of some rust
greetings