My Katar Collection

[JamesKelly]

For comments, or just to show off my entire collection. Saw just one that appealed both to my wallet & I, here it is. The dealer says it is from South India - Srirangam or Tanjore, late 16th century, with a yali hood termination. The point is reinforced to penetrate chain mail.

I'm really an antique firearm collector. Somehow I acquired a growing interest in Indian weapons. A bit uneasy about displaying cold arms, no matter what I do they are always loaded.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Congratulations :-).
Tell me where the two/four peacocks are hidden :-).
Yes you have an old katar, and a nice one as well :-).
Jens

[JamesKelly]

Peacocks?
Well, I suppose you jest, but you have an amazing eye, to recognize a stylized peacock (your 5 Jan '05 blade, 8 Oct '14 note to Runjeet
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Katars
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Katars )

I don't know which is the peacock in either of those

If there are any here, might you point them out?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.
Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.
Jens

Jens, James actually does have at least some books on the subject (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18480) but I think your answer is rather rude. Not everyone has a large enough interest to warrant purchasing a lot of books, and if you are going to tell James this why not tell each and every person who asks a question here the same thing?

I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.

If you resent answering questions then simply ignore them. You are very knowledgeable but that is not how you teach someone, you could have simply pointed out the peacocks that are obvious to you but invisible to others.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I did not mean to be rude - sorry.
About the peacocks - I just pointed them out.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jens, James actually does have at least some books on the subject (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18480) but I think your answer is rather rude. Not everyone has a large enough interest to warrant purchasing a lot of books, and if you are going to tell James this why not tell each and every person who asks a question here the same thing? If you resent answering questions then simply ignore them. You are very knowledgeable but that is not how you teach someone, you could have simply pointed out the peacocks that are obvious to you but invisible to others.

Like many members here, despite his excellent English, it is not Jens' first language and stylistic or cultural nuance can be missed. As I have grown very familiar with his personality and posting style, Jens' posts on this thread were not, to me, rude or insensitive at all. However, I can understand how others, not as familiar with him, could misconstrue his playful comments.

Frankly, whenever I see a post on Indian arms/armour, it is Jens' responses I most look forward to reading...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you very much Andrew.
Maybe I better stop writing on the forum and only look now and again, so I dont offend others.
Jens

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you very much Andrew.
Maybe I better stop writing on the forum and only look now and again, so I dont offend others.
Jens

Yes, I agree. And you should divest yourself of any over-decorated, gaudy gold/silver/gem encrusted weapons collecting dust in your collection, too. I'll even split the shipping cost to my address in the US with you.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you very much Andrew.
Maybe I better stop writing on the forum and only look now and again, so I dont offend others.
Jens

Jens your incredible knowledge on the subject is well known and respected by anyone who has read your posts, people who do not have much knowledge on the subject often do not post because they are afraid that the experts on the subject will view their posts as amateur etc. It would be really helpful to recommend specific books since you obviously have already read the available ones, forum members such as myself many not be able to just start buying books randomly but if we know which book would help us with the item being discussed that would be of great use.

[JamesKelly]

Don't believe them, Jens - I am not offended.

Personally, words like "arrogant" and "prickly individual" have been used to describe me where I worked.

Yes, I do see the peacock your posted this time.

Having been primarily a gun & American history guy for the last three-score years, my 54-page book list has only recently added maybe 16 books on various ethnographic knives.

I really would appreciate some suggestions of books with illustrations of those stylized peacocks.

[Ian]

Jens:

I see four on the gilded one that you posted but only two on James' example. Is that correct?

Since raising peacocks was the hobby of wealthy nabobs and other dignitaries, does the presence of peacocks on weapons indicate an association with royalty or power?

Ian.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok I will reply on these mails as best I can.

Andrew, the reason while I have not sent them yet is, that the carton box I have is far too small and not strong enough - sorry. And all the boxes I have been looking at, seem to be even smaller :-).

I will not recommen any books, as some of them are quite expensive, and this could discurage some form buying books at all, but there are a few authors, which I think you should try to look up on the net. Robert Elgood, Thomas H. Hendley, Rajendralala Mitra, Bashir Mohamed, Susan Stronge, Stuard Cary Welsh and Mark Zebrowski. Enjoy the search. Btw the Marlborough House and the Sandringham books have not so long ago been reprinted by Ken Trotman, so you dont have to buy the editions from end of 1800. Sorry Andrew as I think you would have prefered this to be mentioned on another thread.

Not all of the katars have the peacocks, but a lot of them have. On both of the katars in the picture you can see four peacocks, two on the blade and two at the lower part of the hand guard. I know they are often 'hidden', so it is not always easy to see them, if you dont know they are. The peacocks always have their heads towards each other, and their tails meet in the middle of the blade, to form the Kundalini Flame/The Tree of life/a cypress (for more information of the first two read some Yoga books).

Collecting Indian weapons is a world of its own. All the different forms, changing a bit from place to place, the different fashions of decoration, and the forms long gone.

I havge written an article about the age of the katar, and took it back to the Orissa in the 10th century - so it is a very old weapon type, and when you look at the age it has not changed much.

Jens



For the peacocks and the four cusped arch design see Elgood 2004.

[JamesKelly]

Jens -
Thanks for the suggested authors. I have a couple of them (including your article in Arms & Armour V10 #1) & will slowly order more.

In both fire- and cold arms, published works have useful information but often severely limited illustrations.
My immediate question is how do I recognize a peacock that has been (to my eye) stylized out of all resemblance to anything avian. There is, so far as I know, no book entitled Peacocks on Indian Weapons. For that matter I've found no works specifically on katars, or on shields. Therefore, I have begun assembling my own computer "books" for these fields. For some time I've found this approach helpful in certain narrow firearms interests.
This site is a wonderful source. And the better dealers have numerous & often superb photos.

[Jens Nordlunde]

James,
Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India by Zebrowski. You will not find any weapons in the book, but what you will find is very early items of peacocks and a lot of different kinds of decoration, also usen on weapons - and they are dated.
The Adventurers of Hamza and other early books showing miniatures could be a big help as well.
I do agree with you, that many things shown on weapons are hidden so you cant see them unless you know where they are, and what they represent.
Now it is up to you, how big your interest in Indian weapons is, if you will go on researching as I have for decades, or if you will give up now.
I wish you all the best, as I think I will stop writing on the forum, so others can take over.
Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Like many members here, despite his excellent English, it is not Jens' first language and stylistic or cultural nuance can be missed. As I have grown very familiar with his personality and posting style, Jens' posts on this thread were not, to me, rude or insensitive at all. However, I can understand how others, not as familiar with him, could misconstrue his playful comments.

Frankly, whenever I see a post on Indian arms/armour, it is Jens' responses I most look forward to reading...

Andrew, Jen currently has 1,666 posts here dating back to 2004, he is obviously intelligent and he know exactly how he is coming across. these two statements from him say it all.

Maybe I better stop writing on the forum and only look now and again, so I dont offend others.

I wish you all the best, as I think I will stop writing on the forum, so others can take over.

What a mature attitude, he will take his toys and go home if anyone dares to mention the obvious, of course he has the right to act any way he wants and forum members can pretend its perfectly alright with them so that they can obtain some little nuggets of Jens wisdom which he will begrudgingly toss their way occasionally.

researching as I have for decades

, I know many people on several different forums who have been researching various arms and armor related subjects for decades as well and they freely give their advice without such childish outbursts. I myself have spent many years and considerable amounts of money researching Japanese armor, everything I have learned is available to anyone free of charge, with no snarky comments etc. My images have been given to the public on Wikipedia Commons and I have created several articles on Wikipedia were the references I have used to obtain my knowledge are listed as well for anyone to see and use.

Here are links to Jens articles on the katar for anyone interested, of course you will have to purchase them.

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...3Z.00000000020

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U-yP6_ldUZw

[Runjeet Singh]

Dear All,

I have followed the thread with interest, as it is a topic of interest for me, on many levels!

Unfortunate to see the misunderstanding but I hope there wont be any animosity. I agree with Andrew, that casual emails/written word can sometimes by misconstrued, especially with cultural differences.

Sad to hear you may be leaving Jens, I do have a couple of questions that will (I hope) at least lure you back to this discussion. In fact a correction, there IS a weapon in the Zebrowski book, or at least, a bronze 'Yali' South Indian dagger hilt. I'm sure you have seen it Jens, and my comment is me being slightly pedantic.

I do have a couple of serious questions for you - I would like to hear your opinion on the gold decoration on your pictured Katars. If you agree with me, that it is applied later, and North Indian in style. Done very nicely - in the 19thC by Rajput/Punjabi artisans?

I have had some fantastic Tanjore katars pass through my hands, most have been plain steel, applied silver, or silver gilt.

Is your Katar article available for public or private reading?

Regards
Runjeet

[Runjeet Singh]

My last email was published without me seeing Eric's last message..........I guess my question re the gold work still stands, some of the other questions/comments no longer apply or have been answered

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Andrew, Jen currently has 1,666 posts here dating back to 2004, he is obviously intelligent and he know exactly how he is coming across. these two statements from him say it all.





What a mature attitude, he will take his toys and go home if anyone dares to mention the obvious, of course he has the right to act any way he wants and forum members can pretend its perfectly alright with them so that they can obtain some little nuggets of Jens wisdom which he will begrudgingly toss their way occasionally.

, I know many people on several different forums who have been researching various arms and armor related subjects for decades as well and they freely give their advice without such childish outbursts. I myself have spent many years and considerable amounts of money researching Japanese armor, everything I have learned is available to anyone free of charge, with no snarky comments etc. My images have been given to the public on Wikipedia Commons and I have created several articles on Wikipedia were the references I have used to obtain my knowledge are listed as well for anyone to see and use.

Here are links to Jens articles on the katar for anyone interested, of course you will have to purchase them.

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...3Z.00000000020

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U-yP6_ldUZw

Well, I disagree with your take on this. As does the OP, incidentally.

Regardless, I ask that you focus your comments on the item being discussed, rather than on those discussing it.

Andrew

[JamesKelly]

Oh, well.

My son helped clean up my computer a bit.
Naturally we went to this site for pictures of my katar.
Andrew does not collect, nor has he any particular knowledge of, edged weapons.
He looked at mine.
He looked at the one Jens posted 10 Aug 03:45 pm
He immediately pointed out the two peacocks on my blade, which I had not been able to see (the other two are still a bit vague to me)

Oh, well.

I'm sure I'll find Zebrowski and Hamza's adventures interesting, once abebooks sends them.

Aaagh.

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

I can honestly say that in well over four decades of the study of arms, and in more instances I can recount in conversations with authors, collectors, dealers, and well known scholars on these subjects...often times their retorts or responses may have been perceived as brusque or blunt, but 'rude' is not a term I would use. These men indeed shared their knowledge with me, but bluntly challenged me to find answers on my own as well . That message served me well, and I did, and they taught me exactly what Jens tried to say.......if you intend to pursue a field of study, it must be a serious approach and answers are out there, but must be found, not simply handed over.

I have written on these forums for over 17 years (2004 was a benchmark when the forum was reorganized) and Jens was writing here before then as well.
He has become one of the foremost authorities on katars and tulwars (though he will never admit it!) and has been the very person most here turn to on these arms for a these years.
I resent the 'rude' comment about Jens ...period!

He has openly shared his knowledge here with countless members and readers over all these years, and entirely advanced all of our knowledge on these arms, together. I have written here as long , and spent countless hours and days and often money researching in order to offer as much information as possible to learn with others here.....so has Jens.

I emphatically note this not only as a friend of Jens, but proudly as a colleague here who is boundlessly grateful for all he has openly shared.
His articles are of course involving purchase, but as anyone who has published knows, it is because they are in published journals which are not free.

[JamesKelly]

As the person who started all this mess I wish to emphasize that I never felt insulted by Jens nor did I regard him as rude. Indeed, he has my sympathy as an expert answering questions from the totally ignorant. In this field I am that ignorant person.

I appreciate the knowledge he has imparted.

My introduction to arms literature came in the spring of 1951 when I first read my father's book The Kentucky Rifle, by Captain John G.W. Dillin. I have since acquired a fair size library on firearms, North American history, historical metallurgy and assorted other matters. For various reasons i have become interested in edged weapons, for the most part Indian.

Along with the weapons themselves one attraction is the impressive intellectual level of this site. I do not have decades left to study this new (to me) field, but I surely do like to learn what I can about those weapons that I have.

[Jim McDougall]

Very graciously put James, and as I noted in my comments, your posts were well placed as were your responses, and the unfortunate turn in the meter of this thread had nothing to do with you, and resulted entirely from the unwarranted intervention which had nothing to do with the discussion.

As Jens has well noted, the study of Indian arms is far from a topic which has concise answers and neatly categorized classifications for its weapons in many, if not most cases. In such cases, even the many references and volumes published on these arms do not come close to definitive answers which constantly arise with the many cross influenced forms and variants.
I would not use to the term 'ignorance' toward anyone baffled by this formidable topic but with an interest in them, as few can claim exact knowledge and infallible knowledge on them.

While you may modestly disclaim specific knowledge in certain fields, your interest and desire to learn is well placed here, and your grace and courtesy an exemplary lesson in the gentlemanly discussions we strive for.
Thank you so much!

P.S. I have to admit I really have trouble with these peacocks too!!!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

Jim, of course Mr Kelly said nothing, if he did then he risked Jens doing exactly what he did when I mentioned his rude answer, which was to threaten to not post here anymore. How would you know that I have no interest in katars, do you think I am reading these posts for nothing, as for having nothing to add, I am reading the posts to learn, like many others who read the post here but do not "add" anything.

I belong to many different forums on many different subjects. People with superior knowledge go to these forums to share what they know, others go to learn. This post was just such a post, a person asked for some comments on an item he obviously knows little about. Jens pointed out something he obviously know a lot about but instead of explaining further he said this.

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.Jens

Jens could have easily shown were the peacocks were located and he could have easily recommended some books for people to read on the subject of Indian decorations (which he later did). What does his ownership of "six or seven meters" of books have to do with this, and his snarky smart ass "A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum" was totally uncalled for.

Then because one person (me) dares to express an opinion on his answer he threatens to stop posting here, what kind of childish reply is that, so he is going to punish all forum members else because I made a comment. When someone who is an authority on any subject answers people who he knows do not have the same level of knowledge in that manner it is rude, that is my personal opinion on the subject, which comes from many years of discussing arms and armor on various forums with some very knowledgeable people who never answer a less knowledgeable forum member that way.

[Jim McDougall]

OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism.
I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok let me end this discussion.

Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you.

James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one.

Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows?
I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book.

Jens

[spiral]

Amongst many more "practical" trades I worked as a teacher & counsellor for many years.

I found that if you just tell someone the answers... they learn nothing other than what you say. {if that.}

Help them to see, think & discover the answer to the the question's themselves {with gentle guidance where necessary.} & they grow & learn & will even notice & make other observations on other items.

Its the difference between reading a child a book & teaching them to read.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to James' katar, I think the dealers assessment was pretty accurate, though as always further research will reveal more detailed answers. I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.

In James' katar, these decorative 'peacocks' are perhaps relatively unrecognizable because they have been a bit more stylized, however they are in the same primary configuration and location that Jens showed in the example he posted.
In arms decoration and features, there are many elements which have become either highly stylized or often vestigially applied as progressively used on later examples or perhaps in varying workshops by different artisans. It is sometimes the case where these 'become' interpretive as with someone copying words in a foreign alphabet when they do not speak the language.

These kinds of nuances may often offer clues to the proper identification of a weapon as to period, or perhaps even regional classification , remembering of course that these speculations remain circumstancial in most cases.
These are most certainly similar guidelines in identification of firearms, and of course though firearms and edged weapons are essentially 'apples and oranges' functionally , their decorative motifs are often very related.

I have often found valuable clues to identifying motifs etc on many edged weapons in books which are specifically on firearms , case in point, Robert Elgood's, "Firearms of the Islamic World". As Jens mentioned, many clues turn up in books like 'Zebrowski', which is focused on material culture, not arms in particular.

Naturally, for more direct information, Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is probably the most reliable and comprehensive source for these kinds of katars as far as data. As all of us, as arms researchers are aware, these more direct references are the benchmarks, and often provide the clues and direction for in depth research in continuation.

So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.........So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

Everything you ever wanted to know about Indian peacocks, readable online.


"Peacock in Indian Art, Thought and Literature" by Krishna Lal, Abhinav Publications, 2006.

The National Bird Of India Is The Peacock. Majestic And Graceful, With A Beautiful From And Charming Colours, It Caught The Fancy Of The Indian Artisans From Early Times, Who Used It Profusely In Their Artistic Creations. From The Harappan Period To The Present Day, In Every Art Expression, The Peacock Is Beautifully Portrayed. It Has Been Depicted As A Sacred Bird; Mount Of Kartikeya, An Important Deity Of Hindu Pantheon And An Absent Lover In The Miniature Paintings.The Present Monograph Is An In Depth Study Of All Aspects Related To This Bird Its Habitat, History, Narration In Indian Mythology And Literature, Various Forms, Its Uses And Medicinal Properties Mentioned In Ancient Texts. 107 Carefully Selected Colourful Illustrations And 25 Sketches On The Subject Show Various Aspects Of Peacock In Art Forms.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=wuotb7YyrigC

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Dear All,

I have followed the thread with interest, as it is a topic of interest for me, on many levels!

Unfortunate to see the misunderstanding but I hope there wont be any animosity. I agree with Andrew, that casual emails/written word can sometimes by misconstrued, especially with cultural differences.

Sad to hear you may be leaving Jens, I do have a couple of questions that will (I hope) at least lure you back to this discussion. In fact a correction, there IS a weapon in the Zebrowski book, or at least, a bronze 'Yali' South Indian dagger hilt. I'm sure you have seen it Jens, and my comment is me being slightly pedantic.

I do have a couple of serious questions for you - I would like to hear your opinion on the gold decoration on your pictured Katars. If you agree with me, that it is applied later, and North Indian in style. Done very nicely - in the 19thC by Rajput/Punjabi artisans?

I have had some fantastic Tanjore katars pass through my hands, most have been plain steel, applied silver, or silver gilt.

Is your Katar article available for public or private reading?

Regards
Runjeet

Hi Rujeet ,
Here are some pictures with original 17th century gold work!
Kurt