Delux U.S. or British 18th Century Silver Hilt Saber Elephant Ivory Grip

theswordcollector · 13th December 2014, 09:25 PM

Hello fellow friends and collectors. I purchased this sword in Springfield M.A. many years ago along with a collection of U.S. rev war era items. I was told by the owners of the estate this sword was also from the U.S. rev war. It is hallmarked Woolley Deakin & Co. on the blade .The handel is solid silver and the grip is one piece solid (elephant ivory). Both sides of the blade are engraved with gold inlay and blueing. The blade is still razor sharp. I have not researched this piece since aquiring it. Can anyone kindly help me with the following questions or any possible information?

1. Could this have been a U.S. Rev war sword, War of 1812 sword or European Napoleonic wars sword ?
2. Could this be a General's sword , Lieutenant's sword or person of higher rank?
3. What type is this hilt? British, French or U.S. ?
4. What model or pattern would this sword be condsidered ?
5. What type of division would this sword be associated to?

fernando · 14th December 2014, 05:03 PM

If you consider that Woolley Deakin & Co were active between 1800 (or 1803) and 1807 in Edmund Street, Birmingham, some of your questions are already answered.
More likely to have served in the Peninsular war (1807-1814), it certainly belonged to a high rank officer, maybe a General, i would venture, with its silver & ivory hilt.

VANDERNOTTE · 14th December 2014, 07:18 PM

that the cain of saber i like,classic and elegant
find a scabar for im
congratulacion
jacques

theswordcollector · 14th December 2014, 10:01 PM

Merci beaucoup pour les aimables paroles, je espère un jour trouver un fourreau :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

that the cain of saber i like,classic and elegant
find a scabar for im
congratulacion
jacques

theswordcollector · 14th December 2014, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

If you consider that Woolley Deakin & Co were active between 1800 (or 1803) and 1807 in Edmund Street, Birmingham, some of your questions are already answered.
More likely to have served in the Peninsular war (1807-1814), it certainly belonged to a high rank officer, maybe a General, i would venture, with its silver & ivory hilt.

Thank you very much for the reply. It makes sense. I found a French mounted hilt possibly (from the Peninsular War) similair to this one but in brass. Good insight :-)

http://www.antique-swords.eu/F77-Nap...-Officers.html

Richard G · 16th December 2014, 02:21 PM

The hilt is not typically English, but that does not mean it is not English. However if it is silver, and it is English, then it should bear English hallmarks. If it does not I suspect the the hilt is not English.
Regards
Richard

M ELEY · 17th December 2014, 03:20 AM

Absolutely beautiful sword! The pommel and general hilt shape are French in nature, but I suspect the pattern was generic for any high officer's type swords, much as was customary in the previous century (officers had a pic of which pattern they wanted). Given the time period (1800-15-ish), it seems a little strange that a Brit officer would order a sword 'in the French style'. I know American officers definitely took to some of the French patterns. Wooley & Deakin might have customized an order for such. I know, it was the War of 1812 period and we (yanks) were at war with Britain, but just as back in the Rev War, some of the English sword makers sometimes looked the other way when it came to who was making the order. Its also possible that it slipped into that period prior to us being on England's bad side. I think, despite the French pattern, that it was NOT made for the French by Wooley, because from the last decade of the 18th until the fist quarter of the 19th, England and France decidedly didn't like each other-

E.B. Erickson · 18th December 2014, 01:19 PM

That is a very nice sword!
In spite of the dates for Wooley and Deakin, that blade appears to be from an English 1788 pattern cav sword. This could be an old 1788 blade (Wooley made 1788s when they were the accepted pattern - is this an example of using old stock?) mounted and etched by W&D in the early 1800s to conform to the current fashion. Alternatively, it could be a special blade made to order for a customer.

1788 blades were specified as being 36" long, but I've seen unshortened ones from 34-35".How long is the blade on this sword?

To help nail down the nationality, is there a coat of arms on the blade? Mr. Eley noted that American sword fashion was heavily influenced by French styles: is there an American eagle etched on the blade?

--ElJay

13th December 2014, 09:25 PM	#1
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	Delux U.S. or British 18th Century Silver Hilt Saber Solid Ivory Grip Hello fellow friends and collectors. I purchased this sword in Springfield M.A. many years ago along with a collection of U.S. rev war era items. I was told by the owners of the estate this sword was also from the U.S. rev war. It is hallmarked Woolley Deakin & Co. on the blade .The handel is solid silver and the grip is one piece solid (elephant ivory). Both sides of the blade are engraved with gold inlay and blueing. The blade is still razor sharp. I have not researched this piece since aquiring it. Can anyone kindly help me with the following questions or any possible information? 1. Could this have been a U.S. Rev war sword, War of 1812 sword or European Napoleonic wars sword ? 2. Could this be a General's sword , Lieutenant's sword or person of higher rank? 3. What type is this hilt? British, French or U.S. ? 4. What model or pattern would this sword be condsidered ? 5. What type of division would this sword be associated to? Attached Images Last edited by theswordcollector; 14th December 2014 at 04:08 PM.

14th December 2014, 07:18 PM	#3
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	us sabre that the cain of saber i like,classic and elegant find a scabar for im congratulacion jacques

17th December 2014, 03:20 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,099	Absolutely beautiful sword! The pommel and general hilt shape are French in nature, but I suspect the pattern was generic for any high officer's type swords, much as was customary in the previous century (officers had a pic of which pattern they wanted). Given the time period (1800-15-ish), it seems a little strange that a Brit officer would order a sword 'in the French style'. I know American officers definitely took to some of the French patterns. Wooley & Deakin might have customized an order for such. I know, it was the War of 1812 period and we (yanks) were at war with Britain, but just as back in the Rev War, some of the English sword makers sometimes looked the other way when it came to who was making the order. Its also possible that it slipped into that period prior to us being on England's bad side. I think, despite the French pattern, that it was NOT made for the French by Wooley, because from the last decade of the 18th until the fist quarter of the 19th, England and France decidedly didn't like each other- Last edited by M ELEY; 18th December 2014 at 01:10 AM.

14th December 2014, 05:03 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If you consider that Woolley Deakin & Co were active between 1800 (or 1803) and 1807 in Edmund Street, Birmingham, some of your questions are already answered. More likely to have served in the Peninsular war (1807-1814), it certainly belonged to a high rank officer, maybe a General, i would venture, with its silver & ivory hilt.

16th December 2014, 02:21 PM	#6
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	The hilt is not typically English, but that does not mean it is not English. However if it is silver, and it is English, then it should bear English hallmarks. If it does not I suspect the the hilt is not English. Regards Richard

18th December 2014, 01:19 PM	#8
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	That is a very nice sword! In spite of the dates for Wooley and Deakin, that blade appears to be from an English 1788 pattern cav sword. This could be an old 1788 blade (Wooley made 1788s when they were the accepted pattern - is this an example of using old stock?) mounted and etched by W&D in the early 1800s to conform to the current fashion. Alternatively, it could be a special blade made to order for a customer. 1788 blades were specified as being 36" long, but I've seen unshortened ones from 34-35".How long is the blade on this sword? To help nail down the nationality, is there a coat of arms on the blade? Mr. Eley noted that American sword fashion was heavily influenced by French styles: is there an American eagle etched on the blade? --ElJay