A Pattern Welded Katar

Lew · 14th October 2011, 11:12 PM

Here is a strange beast. I picked this up this week and it arrived the other day. Now all of the katars that I have seen are made from one type of wootz blade or another but this one is pattern welded. It is quite heavy and thick compared to my others. What I find interesting is the dark steel at the tip. I have seen a number of wootz katars with the tips broken off this makes me think that these wootz tips were a bit on the brittle side? Maybe this smith forged this one out of pattern welded steel to give it a more resilient tip.

Battara · 15th October 2011, 04:48 AM

I've seen this piece in hand and it is indeed interesting and odd.

ALEX · 15th October 2011, 08:08 AM

Lew,
Your logic does make sense. Wootz is brittle. When it comes to sword blades, it has great strength against cutting-edge directed impact, but not against front or side impact. This katar may very well be an attempt to addres this weakness (perhaps similarly to scarf-welding effect and heat-treated/tempered edge). I cannot think of another examples/references, but you may be on to something. Good thinking!

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2011, 11:36 AM

Going back about thirty years I handled a beautiful katar that was forged with a chevron pattern. It was exceptional.

I've never attempted it, but I rather think that welding wootz to ordinary material that had been pattern welded might be just a wee bit tricky.

Atlantia · 15th October 2011, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Going back about thirty years I handled a beautiful katar that was forged with a chevron pattern. It was exceptional.

I've never attempted it, but I rather think that welding wootz to ordinary material that had been pattern welded might be just a wee bit tricky.

Hi Alan,

Haven't we seen blades with wootz on one side and laminated/pattern welded on the other?
Seem to remember such a discussion from a while back......?

Lew,

Nice katar mate.
Were it just darkened with patina I would heve suggested an etch because I'd have thought simply from the style that wootz was a good possibility.
However, that said I've seen plenty of nice indian blades with interesting laminated 'patterns' (although not usually Katar).
I agree that we do see a lot of Katar with tips missing and this would seem to be an excellent method of strengthening that area.
I think that now that we are all wootz obcessed we are going to see a lot of 'investigations' into blade construction turning up interesting results during the search for wootz, as pretty much all old blades get 'tested'.
I've seen a few Tulwar turning up recently with laminated/pattern welded blades.

Best
Gene

Rick · 15th October 2011, 04:45 PM

The pattern would most likely be lost from the welding temps ?

Atlantia · 15th October 2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The pattern would most likely be lost from the welding temps ?

LOL, I think that formed part of the discussion.... or am I losing the plot?

Rick · 15th October 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I think that formed part of the discussion.... or am I losing the plot?

No Gene .

IIRC it was a sword; wootz on one side, plain steel (again IIRC) on the other .. wootz can be scarf-welded of course .

Possibly it was in Artzi's possesion ???

Atlantia · 15th October 2011, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

No Gene .

IIRC it was a sword; wootz on one side, plain steel (again IIRC) on the other .. wootz can be scarf-welded of course .

Possibly it was in Artzi's possesion ???

Could well be mate.
I am in my 40s now, the old brain plays tricks with my memory.......

Lew · 15th October 2011, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Could well be mate.
I am in my 40s now, the old brain plays tricks with my memory.......

It's all down hill now my friend

l myself have way too many pictures of old swords in my head and have trouble accessing them all at times.

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2011, 12:36 AM

Hi Gentlemen,
I believe the sword you are referring to is owned by Jens, see attached photo.
Regards to all those in their 'dotage'.

Norman.

P.S. It was mentioned in a thread that I started so perhaps I have an unfair edge!!!!!!!

Rick · 16th October 2011, 02:40 AM

I don't know if that's the one I remember, Norman .

IIRC it was a Shamshir of sorts Indian or Persian (of course) .

Then again, I turned 65 last week ............

A.alnakkas · 16th October 2011, 08:27 AM

You guys make me feel like a toddler :-)

Very interesting item Lew, congratulations. I saw/owned tulwars with scarf weld, is it done on purpose during the creation or just repair for broken swords?

ALEX · 16th October 2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

... is it done on purpose during the creation or just repair for broken swords?

Scarf welding is one of Indian blade making techniques, was done intentionally for purposes of enhancing blade's capacity/resistance against impact. It normally joins plain steel and woots near blade's base. Neither this partucular katar nor Jens' sword are examples of scarf weldeding in it's classical form.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th October 2011, 05:01 PM

All right Alex,
Here it is before you start asking me for it

.
Jens

P.S. sorry for the poor quality of the picture, but I am sore one can see what you mean.

ALEX · 16th October 2011, 05:15 PM

Now, this is scarf welding

Atlantia · 17th October 2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

It's all down hill now my friend

l myself have way too many pictures of old swords in my head and have trouble accessing them all at times.

LOL, I think that when we had the baby, I had to share some 'brainpower' with him. Not been the same since he arrived!

Rick · 18th October 2011, 04:33 AM

Just wait ................... it gets worse .

Gt Obach · 18th October 2011, 06:27 PM

@ Lew

occasionally a crucible steel charge can be an incomplete melt... some of the low carbon wrought iron has not gone into solution in time... it is difficult to tell as when you look at the crucible, most of the melt is liquid -- with a piece of wrought iron floating within.... now the crucible is yanked out..... cooled.. and then ingot is cracked out of the crucible and forged out into a blade
-- now to the smith's surprise, when the blade is etched....a non-patterning area is revealed in the wootz... this can be some of the initial ingredients not fully melted
- it does become a steel however.... as carbon will migrate as the blade is forged

also... to broken tips... alot of blades can have the tips broken during combat use..

not suggesting this is what happened with this blade... but its likely a crucible melt error

also... forgewelded wootz can be done without loss of pattern... I have seen it

Blacksmith · 18th October 2011, 07:44 PM

I agreed with Lew. On some thread a while ago I mentioned a tulwar which I saw in India, the blade was wootz on other side and pattern welded damascus on other.It was for sale but the price was quite something so I had to pass it.
Still regretting...
-Timo-

Blacksmith · 18th October 2011, 07:46 PM

Sorry, agreed with Obach.

Richard Furrer · 20th October 2011, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

I agreed with Lew. On some thread a while ago I mentioned a tulwar which I saw in India, the blade was wootz on other side and pattern welded damascus on other.It was for sale but the price was quite something so I had to pass it.
Still regretting...
-Timo-

That blade is called a "Kamara"..I saw one in North India belonging to a landed family. It hardness tested different from one side to the other...first indication that it was one of those as the carbon levels were different from one material to the next and a "as quench hardness" is related to carbon levels only. I had heard of them, but that was proof.

I have yet to make one, but it is on the list.

And just to reinforce the point, it is possible to forge-weld crucible steels to non-crucible steels and still maintain the pattern. Anyone interested can email me and I'll provide some images.

I have seen a few katar which are not wootz. the habit of late in India seems to be polishing the items..which makes it difficult to tell what the steel is.

Ric

14th October 2011, 11:12 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A Pattern Welded Katar Here is a strange beast. I picked this up this week and it arrived the other day. Now all of the katars that I have seen are made from one type of wootz blade or another but this one is pattern welded. It is quite heavy and thick compared to my others. What I find interesting is the dark steel at the tip. I have seen a number of wootz katars with the tips broken off this makes me think that these wootz tips were a bit on the brittle side? Maybe this smith forged this one out of pattern welded steel to give it a more resilient tip. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 14th October 2011 at 11:37 PM.

16th October 2011, 12:36 AM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Gentlemen, I believe the sword you are referring to is owned by Jens, see attached photo. Regards to all those in their 'dotage'. Norman. P.S. It was mentioned in a thread that I started so perhaps I have an unfair edge!!!!!!! Attached Images

16th October 2011, 05:01 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	All right Alex, Here it is before you start asking me for it . Jens P.S. sorry for the poor quality of the picture, but I am sore one can see what you mean. Attached Images

18th October 2011, 07:44 PM	#20
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	forgewelded katar I agreed with Lew. On some thread a while ago I mentioned a tulwar which I saw in India, the blade was wootz on other side and pattern welded damascus on other.It was for sale but the price was quite something so I had to pass it. Still regretting... -Timo-

18th October 2011, 07:46 PM	#21
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	forgewelded katar Sorry, agreed with Obach.

15th October 2011, 04:48 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I've seen this piece in hand and it is indeed interesting and odd.

15th October 2011, 08:08 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Lew, Your logic does make sense. Wootz is brittle. When it comes to sword blades, it has great strength against cutting-edge directed impact, but not against front or side impact. This katar may very well be an attempt to addres this weakness (perhaps similarly to scarf-welding effect and heat-treated/tempered edge). I cannot think of another examples/references, but you may be on to something. Good thinking!

15th October 2011, 11:36 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Going back about thirty years I handled a beautiful katar that was forged with a chevron pattern. It was exceptional. I've never attempted it, but I rather think that welding wootz to ordinary material that had been pattern welded might be just a wee bit tricky.

15th October 2011, 04:45 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	The pattern would most likely be lost from the welding temps ?

16th October 2011, 02:40 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I don't know if that's the one I remember, Norman . IIRC it was a Shamshir of sorts Indian or Persian (of course) . Then again, I turned 65 last week ............

16th October 2011, 08:27 AM	#13
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	You guys make me feel like a toddler :-) Very interesting item Lew, congratulations. I saw/owned tulwars with scarf weld, is it done on purpose during the creation or just repair for broken swords?

16th October 2011, 05:15 PM	#16
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Now, this is scarf welding

18th October 2011, 04:33 AM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Just wait ................... it gets worse .

18th October 2011, 06:27 PM	#19
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	@ Lew occasionally a crucible steel charge can be an incomplete melt... some of the low carbon wrought iron has not gone into solution in time... it is difficult to tell as when you look at the crucible, most of the melt is liquid -- with a piece of wrought iron floating within.... now the crucible is yanked out..... cooled.. and then ingot is cracked out of the crucible and forged out into a blade -- now to the smith's surprise, when the blade is etched....a non-patterning area is revealed in the wootz... this can be some of the initial ingredients not fully melted - it does become a steel however.... as carbon will migrate as the blade is forged also... to broken tips... alot of blades can have the tips broken during combat use.. not suggesting this is what happened with this blade... but its likely a crucible melt error also... forgewelded wootz can be done without loss of pattern... I have seen it