Ottoman kilij blade with ( Kufic) calligraphy, syrian presentation case ?

francantolin · 8th June 2019, 05:02 PM

Hello everybody,

A good friend bought this blade some time ago,
a kilij ( turkish ?) shape ( I think ) but it is a really long piece !
1 meter - 39,4 inches long !

Maybe I will buy it !

Do you think its an old blade ?

Maybe with more recent engravings ?

The engravings on the blade are nice and well made,
I think the style is Kufic calligraphy
but many signs are strange/ unusual ...

so I wonder if it was really made by arabophone craftsman or maybe is it indian work ( per example ) ?

It comes with a nice wooden box,
Syrian-north african style ?
Well made too, I like it ! ( and 1m12 - 44 inches long !... )
It don't seems too old, maybe from the middle 20th century ?...

In the box, there is still the shape for put the complete sword with mounts and scabbard, more the shape of a shamshir hilt.

Where are they now ?!

The blade fits good inside, I think it's the right blade made for this box case.

What do you think ?!

Thank you

francantolin · 8th June 2019, 05:04 PM

The box...

francantolin · 8th June 2019, 05:09 PM

Here the golden calligraphy,
can anybody translate ?
( If possible

)

francantolin · 8th June 2019, 05:12 PM

.

francantolin · 8th June 2019, 05:14 PM

I just recognise '' Allah ''
in the center of this picture.

YataganMan · 8th June 2019, 11:37 PM

What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman

A.alnakkas · 9th June 2019, 02:50 PM

Hello,

Can you take better photos of the steel? Syrians make blades that look great but those blades tend to be crowbar heavy. A pattern can tell a lot. Tang is definitely new but that is ok.

francantolin · 10th June 2019, 12:02 AM

Hello,

Here some closest pics,
Not to easy to do...

First I found just this kind of stripes on the blade
( + lot of scratches ... )

francantolin · 10th June 2019, 12:06 AM

In a few places,
I found I guess a pattern...
What do you think ?

A.alnakkas · 10th June 2019, 06:34 AM

Gold looks a lot better than the modern stuff so I am not sure. Polish a small area and etch?

francantolin · 10th June 2019, 10:57 AM

Hello,
Thank you, yes it's necessary for know / being fixed

I first have to buy it !
I think I'll do.

I'll post pictures

Kind regards

A.alnakkas · 10th June 2019, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,
Thank you, yes it's necessary for know / being fixed

I first have to buy it !
I think I'll do.

I'll post pictures

Kind regards

Last image looks like wootz, not scratches. But worth working on it!

francantolin · 10th June 2019, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YataganMan

What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman

Hello,
I find the quality of this blade quite good, ( flexible-but not that much)
the engravings are really well made, not cheap touristic work

If they are like this one, 150 $ is a really good price !
have you got a picture of these swords to compare please ?

A.alnakkas · 10th June 2019, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YataganMan

What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman

Well, last images do show a tight wootz pattern. I know the swords you are talking about, this one is not one of them.

Kubur · 10th June 2019, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YataganMan

What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman

Yata is absolutely right, this blade is absolutely crap.
I was thinking that the rules are we can't talk about something for sale...
I suspect that no dealer on the forum will buy this sword so the rules can be transpassed...

francantolin · 19th June 2019, 01:55 PM

So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards

A.alnakkas · 19th June 2019, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards

Well done! could etch even better. Pattern looks Persian? I am no expert in identifying patterns but definitely well made. Inscriptions are odd. If you can send better photos I will try to read. Email them to me (check private messages)

ariel · 19th June 2019, 04:34 PM

Well , if similar blades are sold in Istanbul for $200 apiece, I am buying a ticket there and bring a thick wad of cash and a big trunk to fit as many of those fakes as I can find.
Our Turkish colleagues seem to have very high opinion of their compatriot bladesmiths’ skills and unjustifiably low opinion on their financial acumen:-))))))

A.alnakkas · 19th June 2019, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well , if similar blades are sold in Istanbul for $200 apiece, I am buying a ticket there and bring a thick wad of cash and a big trunk to fit as many of those fakes as I can find.
Our Turkish colleagues seem to have very high opinion of their compatriot bladesmiths’ skills and unjustifiably low opinion on their financial acumen:-))))))

I understand and know the type of swords that are confused with this blade. Still, the declaration that this blade is "crap" was bewildering. Obviously this sword has been in the hands of a restorer who made the poorly fitted tang, but the gold work and the blade shape is not what the Syrians currently make.

Speaking of the gold work... looks to be good old work?

ariel · 19th June 2019, 11:13 PM

Yea, I know exactly the kind what you think. My guess , they are made in Syria and sold thru Turkey: mail service in Damascus over the past several years left much to be desired.

Lee · 20th June 2019, 03:46 AM

Just an aside, I bought a similar box devoid of the sword several years ago at the Brimfield flea market for $100. I attribute that box as Syrian and not more than a few decades old. The dealer said it had contained a 'very nice' sword that had been presented to someone who had worked in the Middle East and that she had sold the sword for 'good money' previously (not at the same flea market.) It seemed a shame to me that for that valuation of the box that it was not kept with the sword, but, then again, it fits my old Saudi saif perfectly. I'll never know if my sword was an upgrade or downgrade...

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 09:11 AM

Hello and thank you all,

I thought too about a gift box for diplomats or business men working in middle east.

The friend who bought this ''presentation'' box with the blade told me it was sold as a lot in an auction: sold with an old wood Koran stand ( egyptian or syrian he thinks).

He collects antiques-oriental furnitures and paintings,
edged weapons are not really his interest...
So I bought it...

ALEX · 20th June 2019, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards

Not bad at all !!! Good job etching!
I was also surprised by some negative comments on this blade. It is not to be confused with modern blades from Istanbul, other markets and on-line, it is nothing like. It is of crucible steel, the writing is unusual but in true inlay and of good quality, the box is also fine. The blade looks to be 19thC, probably Persian or Syrian (I'd say Syrian, as the box is Syrian, as other items it came with). Can be restored nicely by adding proper crossguard and hilt.

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 09:12 AM

Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 09:13 AM

Thank you Alex !

ALEX · 20th June 2019, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank you Alex !

You're most welcome!
Also, I had similar blade with similar welded tang. The blade was antique wootz of similar pattern, it was also Persian or Syrian, and I know that the weld repair was done in Syria in the late 1900's, as it was common practice there to "restore" that way. I believe yours came by the same way.
Also, congrats on buying it. A profound bargain, and even includes the free presentation box

sfenoid13 · 25th June 2019, 08:09 AM

Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade

And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2019, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade

And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

No, there aren't ANY bladesmiths that can replicate the patterns of old wootz! Not a single one! And definitely not in Syria or Turkey.

The Georgian Zaqro Nonikashvili is arguably the best modern maker of wootz, but still his blades are quite far from the old wootz. The Russian Ivan Kirpichev comes close by, as there are a couple of Scandinavian smiths. There are a few lesser known Indian smiths who can make fairly good wootz but it is mostly of the crystalline type or sham. The same goes for the few American smiths.

I am quite positive this IS an old blade (significantly older than 200 years), and judging by its shape and decoration, I would dare to say it is around 300 years old.

And yes, the pattern of the wootz appears to be Persian (larger streaks of watering pattern as opposed to very fine streaks in Indian wootz). With quality etching it my reveal it to be Kara Taban or Kara Khorasan. A very, very high quality blade.

My two cents.

ariel · 25th June 2019, 11:10 AM

AFAIK, nobody except for Nonikashvili is currently capable of making a long wootz blade, and his swords go for $1000's.
I have no doubts about the authenticity.
This was not just an excellent buy, but an unbelievable one! Congrats!

Lee · 25th June 2019, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!

I'll have to take some pictures of the presentation box, but the
saif was previously presented in this thread

8th June 2019, 05:02 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Ottoman kilij blade with ( Kufic) calligraphy, syrian presentation case ? Hello everybody, A good friend bought this blade some time ago, a kilij ( turkish ?) shape ( I think ) but it is a really long piece ! 1 meter - 39,4 inches long ! Maybe I will buy it ! Do you think its an old blade ? Maybe with more recent engravings ? The engravings on the blade are nice and well made, I think the style is Kufic calligraphy but many signs are strange/ unusual ... so I wonder if it was really made by arabophone craftsman or maybe is it indian work ( per example ) ? It comes with a nice wooden box, Syrian-north african style ? Well made too, I like it ! ( and 1m12 - 44 inches long !... ) It don't seems too old, maybe from the middle 20th century ?... In the box, there is still the shape for put the complete sword with mounts and scabbard, more the shape of a shamshir hilt. Where are they now ?! The blade fits good inside, I think it's the right blade made for this box case. What do you think ?! Thank you Attached Images

8th June 2019, 05:04 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	The box... Attached Images

8th June 2019, 05:09 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Here the golden calligraphy, can anybody translate ? ( If possible ) Attached Images

8th June 2019, 05:12 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	. Attached Images

8th June 2019, 05:14 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	I just recognise '' Allah '' in the center of this picture. Attached Images

8th June 2019, 11:37 PM	#6
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	ottoman kilich blade ?? What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor ) Regards Yataganman

9th June 2019, 02:50 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello, Can you take better photos of the steel? Syrians make blades that look great but those blades tend to be crowbar heavy. A pattern can tell a lot. Tang is definitely new but that is ok.

10th June 2019, 12:02 AM	#8
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Hello, Here some closest pics, Not to easy to do... First I found just this kind of stripes on the blade ( + lot of scratches ... ) Attached Images

10th June 2019, 12:06 AM	#9
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	In a few places, I found I guess a pattern... What do you think ? Attached Images

10th June 2019, 06:34 AM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Gold looks a lot better than the modern stuff so I am not sure. Polish a small area and etch?

10th June 2019, 10:57 AM	#11
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Hello, Thank you, yes it's necessary for know / being fixed I first have to buy it ! I think I'll do. I'll post pictures Kind regards

19th June 2019, 01:55 PM	#16
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	So, the blade, polished and etched a little. Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!! Can someone help for exact origin and age, would be fair ! Kind regards Attached Images

19th June 2019, 04:34 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well , if similar blades are sold in Istanbul for $200 apiece, I am buying a ticket there and bring a thick wad of cash and a big trunk to fit as many of those fakes as I can find. Our Turkish colleagues seem to have very high opinion of their compatriot bladesmiths’ skills and unjustifiably low opinion on their financial acumen:-))))))

19th June 2019, 11:13 PM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yea, I know exactly the kind what you think. My guess , they are made in Syria and sold thru Turkey: mail service in Damascus over the past several years left much to be desired.

20th June 2019, 03:46 AM	#21
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Just an aside, I bought a similar box devoid of the sword several years ago at the Brimfield flea market for $100. I attribute that box as Syrian and not more than a few decades old. The dealer said it had contained a 'very nice' sword that had been presented to someone who had worked in the Middle East and that she had sold the sword for 'good money' previously (not at the same flea market.) It seemed a shame to me that for that valuation of the box that it was not kept with the sword, but, then again, it fits my old Saudi saif perfectly. I'll never know if my sword was an upgrade or downgrade...

20th June 2019, 09:11 AM	#22
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Hello and thank you all, I thought too about a gift box for diplomats or business men working in middle east. The friend who bought this ''presentation'' box with the blade told me it was sold as a lot in an auction: sold with an old wood Koran stand ( egyptian or syrian he thinks). He collects antiques-oriental furnitures and paintings, edged weapons are not really his interest... So I bought it...

20th June 2019, 09:12 AM	#24
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Glad Lee, if you share a picture of your saif and the box, I must be really nice !!

20th June 2019, 09:13 AM	#25
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 878	Thank you Alex !

25th June 2019, 08:09 AM	#27
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

25th June 2019, 11:10 AM	#29
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AFAIK, nobody except for Nonikashvili is currently capable of making a long wootz blade, and his swords go for $1000's. I have no doubts about the authenticity. This was not just an excellent buy, but an unbelievable one! Congrats!