New Mystery Dagger

Robert · 28th September 2014, 01:33 AM

This has got to be one of the cheapest pieces that I have ever bought on epray, even less than the cost of lunch for one at McBarnyards Golden Starches. While not one of the fanciest daggers that I have seen and not in ideal condition it does look to be fairly well made. With this style of blade I am not quite sure if this piece is from the Philippines, Mexico or any of the other former Spanish colonies. What makes this so interesting to me is the material that was used in the construction of the scabbard. To me it looks to have been made from a sheet of tin.

The shape of the leather collar (to me anyway) definitely shows Spanish styling. The dagger is about 12-1/2 inches in total length with an 8-1/2 inch blade. The hilt itself is made of wood with iron bands, guard and butt plate. The whole piece looks to have some decent age to it and I would say that it as made before WWII, but how much before I'm not quite sure. As this item is has not arrived and is still somewhere between the west coast and my home I can only post some of the auction photos. Any thoughts on age, place of origin or other comments on the odd piece would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 28th September 2014, 06:35 AM

Interesting piece Robert. I would lean away from Mexico but more toward Luzon, Philippines, especially with the shape of the hilt, the horn used, and the form and shape of the scabbard. Yes it is strange that it is made of tin(?). The blade shape is a little odd too. Would like to see what you find out when you get it and test the metal.

Robert · 28th September 2014, 07:43 AM

Jose, I was hoping that you would say Philippines even though the blade style is close to more that a few of the Mexican (scorpion tip) bowies that I have seen. As for the metal sheath, I am hoping that it turns out to be old brass instead of the tin I was told it was. It would definitely be a lot easier to repair the tip if it turned out to be brass. The grip I was also told was wood, but most of the knives and swords I acquire are usually described as having wooden hilts when in fact they are horn. We will see when it arrives.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 28th September 2014, 11:34 AM

Hello Robert,

interesting piece. I also think that the hilt is from horn. The scabbard look like tarnished/oxidised brass. Agree with Jose that it has a Luzon appearance.
I am curious what you can tell when you have received it.

Regards,
Detlef

DaveA · 28th September 2014, 04:43 PM

After WWII, there was an abundance of tin available to smiths. The tin came from the packaging of rations and other supplies for the combatants, and was simply discarded.

The barrel-shaped hilt shows the Spanish influence, but that it is asymmetric in shape says the maker took liberties with the style.

I've seen this blade shape before, but I will have to dig through memories before I can say more.

I also lean toward a Luzon origin, post WWII.

Dave

Nirghosa · 28th September 2014, 06:50 PM

I have a very similar Punyal. Near identical blade profile and wooden handle.

Robert · 28th September 2014, 07:47 PM

Hello Nirghosa,
As it could possibly be of great help could you please post a photo of your punyal for comparison with mine?

Detlef,
I again hope that you are correct in your opinion of the hilt material and that the scabbard as well.

Dave,
Being that the Philippines were (somewhat) under Spanish control for close to 400 years their influence shows itself in many of the edged weapons, Luzon in particular. I hope that you can remember where you have seen another blade of similar shape before as I have only seen some that vaguely resemble it on as I stated earlier Mexican bowie knives. The length of the upper edge (whether false or sharpened) is what is throwing me the most on this piece. It gives it an almost gunong appearance. I also agree with your explanation of where the tin (if that is what it turns out to be) originated from. As for age I must (for now) stick to my original opinion that it is pre WWII, but that could change once it has arrived and I have had time to inspect it. My thanks to everyone that has replied so far for your interest and opinions on this piece.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 28th September 2014, 08:42 PM

Hello Robert:

Nice knife. I think it is very likely to be Filipino and mid-20th C from Luzon. There are other examples of deeply clipped blades like this, mainly coming from Cebu right after WWII. Here is one of mine with an aluminum hilt that is dated 1947. Not exactly the same blade but similar. These were probably influenced by GIs who wanted to take home a souvenir in a more western style than a talibon.

I think yours is probably post-WWII in manufacture because of the metal sheath--others have already noted that after WWII certain types of metal were available from tin cans and downed planes that allowed enterprising Filipinos to explore alternative materials.

Ian.

Nirghosa · 29th September 2014, 11:04 PM

sure

Robert · 1st October 2014, 05:19 AM

The knife arrived today so some of the questions I had are now answered. Detlef, you are correct again and the scabbard is in fact made of brass and not tin as I was told. When I first unpacked it I was sure (because of the grayish color) it was tin, but after a quick wipe with a little soap on a damp cloth to my surprise it turned from the gray color to tarnished greenish brown brass. The edges of the brass on the back of the sheath have a broken solder joint where they once overlapped from throat to the broken tip. Sadly the hilt material is not horn, but is wood just as the seller stated and has several cracks, splits and other damage. The ferrule next to the brass guard might be a replacement as it is poorly made from a very thin piece of brass that is just wrapped around the damaged end of the hilt and shows no sign of ever being soldered. Unlike the front brass ferrule the one on the end of the hilt and the butt cap are both made of steel and unlike the other are fitted to follow the contours of the wooden grip. The blade surprisingly is laminated and though a little thinner than I would have expected is still very sharp. Other than the front brass ferrule this was/is a very well made knife that would have served its owner well for general use and protection if needed. Photos to follow when I have had more time to clean and tidy this up a bit.

Best,
Robert

28th September 2014, 01:33 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	New Mystery Dagger This has got to be one of the cheapest pieces that I have ever bought on epray, even less than the cost of lunch for one at McBarnyards Golden Starches. While not one of the fanciest daggers that I have seen and not in ideal condition it does look to be fairly well made. With this style of blade I am not quite sure if this piece is from the Philippines, Mexico or any of the other former Spanish colonies. What makes this so interesting to me is the material that was used in the construction of the scabbard. To me it looks to have been made from a sheet of tin. The shape of the leather collar (to me anyway) definitely shows Spanish styling. The dagger is about 12-1/2 inches in total length with an 8-1/2 inch blade. The hilt itself is made of wood with iron bands, guard and butt plate. The whole piece looks to have some decent age to it and I would say that it as made before WWII, but how much before I'm not quite sure. As this item is has not arrived and is still somewhere between the west coast and my home I can only post some of the auction photos. Any thoughts on age, place of origin or other comments on the odd piece would be greatly appreciated. Best, Robert Attached Images

28th September 2014, 04:43 PM	#5
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Tin on WWII-era items After WWII, there was an abundance of tin available to smiths. The tin came from the packaging of rations and other supplies for the combatants, and was simply discarded. The barrel-shaped hilt shows the Spanish influence, but that it is asymmetric in shape says the maker took liberties with the style. I've seen this blade shape before, but I will have to dig through memories before I can say more. I also lean toward a Luzon origin, post WWII. Dave

29th September 2014, 11:04 PM	#9
Nirghosa Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	sure Attached Images

28th September 2014, 06:35 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Interesting piece Robert. I would lean away from Mexico but more toward Luzon, Philippines, especially with the shape of the hilt, the horn used, and the form and shape of the scabbard. Yes it is strange that it is made of tin(?). The blade shape is a little odd too. Would like to see what you find out when you get it and test the metal.

28th September 2014, 07:43 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Jose, I was hoping that you would say Philippines even though the blade style is close to more that a few of the Mexican (scorpion tip) bowies that I have seen. As for the metal sheath, I am hoping that it turns out to be old brass instead of the tin I was told it was. It would definitely be a lot easier to repair the tip if it turned out to be brass. The grip I was also told was wood, but most of the knives and swords I acquire are usually described as having wooden hilts when in fact they are horn. We will see when it arrives. Best, Robert

28th September 2014, 11:34 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	Hello Robert, interesting piece. I also think that the hilt is from horn. The scabbard look like tarnished/oxidised brass. Agree with Jose that it has a Luzon appearance. I am curious what you can tell when you have received it. Regards, Detlef

28th September 2014, 06:50 PM	#6
Nirghosa Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	I have a very similar Punyal. Near identical blade profile and wooden handle.

28th September 2014, 07:47 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Nirghosa, As it could possibly be of great help could you please post a photo of your punyal for comparison with mine? Detlef, I again hope that you are correct in your opinion of the hilt material and that the scabbard as well. Dave, Being that the Philippines were (somewhat) under Spanish control for close to 400 years their influence shows itself in many of the edged weapons, Luzon in particular. I hope that you can remember where you have seen another blade of similar shape before as I have only seen some that vaguely resemble it on as I stated earlier Mexican bowie knives. The length of the upper edge (whether false or sharpened) is what is throwing me the most on this piece. It gives it an almost gunong appearance. I also agree with your explanation of where the tin (if that is what it turns out to be) originated from. As for age I must (for now) stick to my original opinion that it is pre WWII, but that could change once it has arrived and I have had time to inspect it. My thanks to everyone that has replied so far for your interest and opinions on this piece. Best, Robert

28th September 2014, 08:42 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hello Robert: Nice knife. I think it is very likely to be Filipino and mid-20th C from Luzon. There are other examples of deeply clipped blades like this, mainly coming from Cebu right after WWII. Here is one of mine with an aluminum hilt that is dated 1947. Not exactly the same blade but similar. These were probably influenced by GIs who wanted to take home a souvenir in a more western style than a talibon. I think yours is probably post-WWII in manufacture because of the metal sheath--others have already noted that after WWII certain types of metal were available from tin cans and downed planes that allowed enterprising Filipinos to explore alternative materials. Ian.

1st October 2014, 05:19 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The knife arrived today so some of the questions I had are now answered. Detlef, you are correct again and the scabbard is in fact made of brass and not tin as I was told. When I first unpacked it I was sure (because of the grayish color) it was tin, but after a quick wipe with a little soap on a damp cloth to my surprise it turned from the gray color to tarnished greenish brown brass. The edges of the brass on the back of the sheath have a broken solder joint where they once overlapped from throat to the broken tip. Sadly the hilt material is not horn, but is wood just as the seller stated and has several cracks, splits and other damage. The ferrule next to the brass guard might be a replacement as it is poorly made from a very thin piece of brass that is just wrapped around the damaged end of the hilt and shows no sign of ever being soldered. Unlike the front brass ferrule the one on the end of the hilt and the butt cap are both made of steel and unlike the other are fitted to follow the contours of the wooden grip. The blade surprisingly is laminated and though a little thinner than I would have expected is still very sharp. Other than the front brass ferrule this was/is a very well made knife that would have served its owner well for general use and protection if needed. Photos to follow when I have had more time to clean and tidy this up a bit. Best, Robert