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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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This is a Keris that I purchased from Ron over the holidays. Here is what I have been able to determine: the dress is Ladrang form, wooden Sarong with a plain brass Pendok. The Mendak is also brass and lightly decorated, the Wilah is 13 Dapor Lok with an interesting Pamor. The Ukiran is a mystery. Is it a whale's tooth? I've compared it side by side with two other knives that have stag horn handles and I am not convinced this is stag horn. Anyone know? TIA for any help!
BTW... If you've not bought from Ron you have missed the best buyer experience ever. ![]() Happy New Year! Harry |
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#2 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
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Ivory?
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#3 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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It looks like bone to me, but photos can be deceptive.
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#4 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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Thirty teeth of the sperm whale can be used for ivory. Each of these teeth, up to 8" long and 3" across, are hollow for the first half of their length. Sperm whale ivory is easily confused with walrus ivory, as both have two distinct layers. The inner layer of sperm whale ivory, however, is much larger. I don't think it is bone, but I could be mistaken. |
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#5 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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Bone.
Let's see the end of the handle. The dentine of Walrus is very different from Sperm Whale dentine. |
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#6 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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MY BEST GUESS FROM THE PICTURES IS BONE OR ANTLER. SPERM WHALE TEETH DON'T HAVE PORES AND ARE USUALLY OF A UNIFORM SMOOTHNESS AND COLOR. KERIS HANDLES ARE OFTEN MADE FROM ANTLER OR BONE THOUGH IVORY IS SOMETIMES USED, MOST I HAVE SEEN AND COULD IDENTIFY WERE ELEPHANT IVORY. NICE REGARDLESS AND THESE DAYS ITS BETTER NOT TO RUN A-FOUL OF THE FOUL IVORY LAWS THAT BAN EVERYTHING REGARDLESS OF AGE AND ORIGIN.
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#7 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
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Bone or de-natured antler. Not whales tooth.
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#8 | |
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#9 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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If bone I'd expect to see a porous end on this handle. Of course these handles are sometimes capped with an insert, but I can't make one out.
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#10 | |
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Happy new year! Harry |
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#11 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,200
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Tooth of just about any animal does not have the type of striations that this has. These striations belong to bone. Some bone chosen does not have ends that are not so porous, depending upon the cut of bone.
Besides, whale tooth is grayer in color with layers. My vote: bone (or less likely antler). |
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#12 | |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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My vote is bone, absolutely not tooth, antler, elephant or marine ivory.
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#14 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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The striations, small parallel lines visible all over the hilt, are the "scars" of the blood vessels when the bone was alive, part of a living creature.
In my opinion, this is the most important and reliable criterion to classify this material as bone. |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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I would like to see the peksi hole (decaying/ pitting or not?) before giving a more definite opinion but would guess for either tanduk rusa (deer antller) or whale bone (not tooth). The origin of the piece is probably East Java and from the patina its age may be about 100 years indeed.
Regards |
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#16 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
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Hello Harry,
Congrats, this is IMVHO a nice keris! Quote:
![]() Whale bone tends to be more porous, polishing less smoothly, and less resistant to wear. Stag tends to be more homogenous if selected and worked well. Quote:
We don't know how long this keris has been out of regular use within the culture (and retired into a collection) which makes judging the age of any part based on wear unreliable. Given this disclaimer, I would not be surprised if this hilt were from the 19th century. First quarter of the 20th c. may be a good conservative estimate though. Regards, Kai |
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#17 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Hello Harry,
The scabbard crafted from a single piece of wood is something that should be especially mentioned! Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
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elephant bone ?
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#19 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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![]() Many thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions, etc. It helps a lot. Harry |
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#20 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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I am afraid you lost me at peksi hole! What is that? |
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#21 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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Many thanks for your help with the hilt. I think you are right about it being bone. Thanks also for pointing out the "single piece" scabbard. I had not noticed that. Happy new year! |
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#22 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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#23 |
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Join Date: May 2006
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In the Javanese language, the word "peksi" means "bird", it is krama (ie, high level Javanese) for "bird", the ngoko (low level, common level) equivalent is "manuk".
The word "pesi" is the correct word to use for a keris tang, or other stick tang, in some applications it can also mean a "pin". The confusion between these two words is understandable, because the "k" in "peksi" is a glottal stop, which goes virtually unheard, especially by a non-native speaker of Javanese. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
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The peksi hole. Thanks again for the help!
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#25 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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Hello Harry,
look like antler or indeed whalebone on your last picture, I would sort out other bone. It's sometimes very difficult to determine the exact origin of the used material, even elephant ivory can become very difficult when it's very worn. And it's very awkward to get a decision without handling the material. So it's my best guess. Regards, Detlef |
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#26 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Hello Detlef,
Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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#27 |
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 311
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since you bought it from Ron, why don't we ask our good friend Ron for his opinion too? (He must be lurking here sometimes too I guess
![]() And you're right, Ron is a great seller... in fact I've been considering to buy this keris too but you beat me to it. Congrats .I like the hilt. doesn't matter if it's made from bone or other wise. it still is a v handsome hilt to my eyes. |
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#28 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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Gentleman, while i am sure that our good friend Ron appreciates all of your compliments i would like to remind you that we do indeed have many regular keris dealers in our ranks and it is probably best not to to single out any one for endorsement over any other in the context of these pages. It could become awkward. And let's keep in mind the non-commercial nature of these forums if we can please.
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#29 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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I just miss the porouness this material normally have. But like said, it's difficult to get a desicion without handling it. Regards, Detlef |
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#30 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 373
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