Question - Open Scabbards and Single bevels in SE Asia

KuKulzA28 · 5th April 2009, 09:09 PM

I had two questions swirling around my head, and I figured this would be the best place to start. Taiwanese aboriginal knives have two interesting traits that are shared by other people nearby. Open scabbards and single(chisel) bevels. The Cordillera folk (Kalinga, Ifugao, Bontoc, etc.) have open scabbards, as well as Kachins, Assam, etc. in SE Asia. I have also seen that chisel grinds/bevels are common in the Visayan area on tenegre, talibon, and some other bolos. Because the SE Asian area was full of trade and cross-pollination since early days, I highly doubt these were all independent developments.

- How did the diffusion of the single bevel and open scabbard spread?
- Since double bevels and fully enclosing sheaths are more common, what advantages did these practices give to the cultures who used them?

Does anyone here know where I can find more information or can help answer me question?

Thanks

dennee · 6th April 2009, 02:09 AM

There are other cultures that also have chisel-edge daos and open scabbards. Such weapons/tools are good for chopping. The open scabbard is presumably for preventing rust by allowing air flow and denying a place for moisture to collect. The cultures that use such weapons are generally jungle dwellers.

KuKulzA28 · 6th April 2009, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

There are other cultures that also have chisel-edge daos and open scabbards. Such weapons/tools are good for chopping.

how is a chisel edge better for chopping than say... a both sided convex grind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

The open scabbard is presumably for preventing rust by allowing air flow and denying a place for moisture to collect. The cultures that use such weapons are generally jungle dwellers.

Now that's very interesting - I did not know that. Thanks

fearn · 6th April 2009, 05:09 AM

Hi All,

I think we've chewed on this question before, Here and Here

Basically, I'm not sure it's a diffusion thing entirely.

For one thing, the problem with an open sheath is that it has to fit the blade fairly well, because otherwise, a double-beveled blade can turn and potentially cut its way out where the front binding hits the wooden back. The simple solution for this is to have a single-beveled edge, with the long, flat side against the back of the open scabbard. That way, even if the blade twists in the scabbard, the edge can't get to a position where it will cut its way out the open face bindings.

That said, why would you want it open? Couple of potential reasons. One is that the local climate is really rainy. If keeping the blade dry is impossible, then keeping it open may be good, because it will drain fast, and the state of the blade can be checked quickly, and rust cleaned off. (Thanks for making this point first dennee).

A second reason to keep it open is that it shows off how much steel you have. In places (like Assam) where steel isn't too common, flashing a blade may be a way of showing ones wealth.

Note that these aren't universal rules, as plenty of people who live in rainy climates have closed scabbards. However, a single bevel does go with the open sheath, because it fits better.

Best,

F

KuKulzA28 · 6th April 2009, 08:42 AM

Thanks, that's very interesting...
so maybe single-bevels and open sheaths went hand in-hand... but a single bevel does not necessarily mean an open sheath (Talibon?) but an open sheath makes for a single-bevel to be ideal?

Would there be any good way to figure out if it was diffusion, isolated innovation or a mix of both?

fearn · 7th April 2009, 04:45 AM

Let's see: hills of Assam, parts of the Philippines, and Taiwan, especially in the highlands....

I could sort of believe that there was diffusion, but not really. Mostly these show up among the highlanders (although I'm not sure about all the Philippine tribes--comments?). These aren't exactly people who talk with each other a lot (yes, I'm stereotyping, sorry).

A counter example is the sai/tjabang, which shows up all over Indonesia, coastal China, up to Okinawa. There are lots of local variations, but it's pretty obvious that sailors carried them all up and down the major trade routes.

That, and the swords in question all look different and are built differently. Actually, the open-work scabbards are different too. Sometimes the opening is bridged by braided rattan (Assam, Philippines), sometimes by metal staples (Taiwan), sometimes with wood (Bhutan).

F

KuKulzA28 · 7th April 2009, 07:13 AM

Ah, good points, convergent evolution of blade-scabbard builds?

Still there was trade in Taiwan, Philippines, and Assam, but I see what you mean, the knives and sheaths are all distinct.

5th April 2009, 09:09 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Question - Open Scabbards and Single bevels in SE Asia I had two questions swirling around my head, and I figured this would be the best place to start. Taiwanese aboriginal knives have two interesting traits that are shared by other people nearby. Open scabbards and single(chisel) bevels. The Cordillera folk (Kalinga, Ifugao, Bontoc, etc.) have open scabbards, as well as Kachins, Assam, etc. in SE Asia. I have also seen that chisel grinds/bevels are common in the Visayan area on tenegre, talibon, and some other bolos. Because the SE Asian area was full of trade and cross-pollination since early days, I highly doubt these were all independent developments. - How did the diffusion of the single bevel and open scabbard spread? - Since double bevels and fully enclosing sheaths are more common, what advantages did these practices give to the cultures who used them? Does anyone here know where I can find more information or can help answer me question? Thanks

6th April 2009, 02:09 AM	#2
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	There are other cultures that also have chisel-edge daos and open scabbards. Such weapons/tools are good for chopping. The open scabbard is presumably for preventing rust by allowing air flow and denying a place for moisture to collect. The cultures that use such weapons are generally jungle dwellers.

6th April 2009, 05:09 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, I think we've chewed on this question before, Here and Here Basically, I'm not sure it's a diffusion thing entirely. For one thing, the problem with an open sheath is that it has to fit the blade fairly well, because otherwise, a double-beveled blade can turn and potentially cut its way out where the front binding hits the wooden back. The simple solution for this is to have a single-beveled edge, with the long, flat side against the back of the open scabbard. That way, even if the blade twists in the scabbard, the edge can't get to a position where it will cut its way out the open face bindings. That said, why would you want it open? Couple of potential reasons. One is that the local climate is really rainy. If keeping the blade dry is impossible, then keeping it open may be good, because it will drain fast, and the state of the blade can be checked quickly, and rust cleaned off. (Thanks for making this point first dennee). A second reason to keep it open is that it shows off how much steel you have. In places (like Assam) where steel isn't too common, flashing a blade may be a way of showing ones wealth. Note that these aren't universal rules, as plenty of people who live in rainy climates have closed scabbards. However, a single bevel does go with the open sheath, because it fits better. Best, F

6th April 2009, 08:42 AM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks, that's very interesting... so maybe single-bevels and open sheaths went hand in-hand... but a single bevel does not necessarily mean an open sheath (Talibon?) but an open sheath makes for a single-bevel to be ideal? Would there be any good way to figure out if it was diffusion, isolated innovation or a mix of both?

7th April 2009, 04:45 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Let's see: hills of Assam, parts of the Philippines, and Taiwan, especially in the highlands.... I could sort of believe that there was diffusion, but not really. Mostly these show up among the highlanders (although I'm not sure about all the Philippine tribes--comments?). These aren't exactly people who talk with each other a lot (yes, I'm stereotyping, sorry). A counter example is the sai/tjabang, which shows up all over Indonesia, coastal China, up to Okinawa. There are lots of local variations, but it's pretty obvious that sailors carried them all up and down the major trade routes. That, and the swords in question all look different and are built differently. Actually, the open-work scabbards are different too. Sometimes the opening is bridged by braided rattan (Assam, Philippines), sometimes by metal staples (Taiwan), sometimes with wood (Bhutan). F

7th April 2009, 07:13 AM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Ah, good points, convergent evolution of blade-scabbard builds? Still there was trade in Taiwan, Philippines, and Assam, but I see what you mean, the knives and sheaths are all distinct.