Relic condition European sword

shayde78 · 27th June 2017, 04:36 PM

Hello. I am a long time 'lurker' and have spent some time trying to learn from the countless informative posts on here. Thank you all for the free education!

This is my first post. I recently acquired an item that appears to be an old 13th-14th century Western European sword in rough stabilized excavated condition. I don't know how often these are faked, but there are a number of features that seem genuine to me. Pictures are below. I think it would qualify as a Type XII (Oakeshott), and looks to be nearly identical to the 5th example shown on this page ( http://myarmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html ) from the Nationalmuseet in Copenhagen. No visible makers marks remain. The fuller is sound, and continues past the guard up onto the hilt (as I have seen on other genuine items). The pommel is solid brass (or bronze) and has corrosion that seems consistent with the condition of the blade. The total length is 3' (each of the tiles in the pictures are 1'x1'). The balance seems right. The proportions seem right. Are these faked? If so, how does one tell?
Thank you in advance for any feedback you can provide.

shayde78 · 30th June 2017, 03:05 AM

Please advise if there are specific views I can provide to allow for better analysis. I'm happy to post additional pictures.
Thanks

Will M · 1st July 2017, 03:40 PM

I do recognize welding and the tang is made of mild steel welded to the cross guard. The blade may be authentic but the rest very questionable.
Possibly an amateur restorer added the hilt.

shayde78 · 3rd July 2017, 03:32 AM

Thank you for applying an expert eye.
Could you please point to the suspect features so that I can learn what to look out for? I'm curious how to tell from a photo that the tang is mild steel.
Thanks again.

mariusgmioc · 4th July 2017, 08:20 PM

Hello,

I am quite sure it is a modern fake.

Sorry!

Marius

shayde78 · 5th July 2017, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

I am quite sure it is a modern fake.

Sorry!

Marius

No worries! I certainly didn't break the bank for it. Are there clear indicators as to its lack of authenticity? I'm looking to develop an ability to more accurately judge items form mere photos. I know it is a problematic exercise under the best circumstances, but as there seems to be a consensus here, there must be some 'tells' that I'd love to learn more about. Since the item in question wasn't free, I'd like to at least get an education for the cost.

Thanks

shayde78 · 13th July 2017, 02:04 AM

Out of curiosity, are these faked merely to dupe unwary collectors, or do museums sell them as souvenir 'replicas'?

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2017, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Out of curiosity, are these faked merely to dupe unwary collectors, or do museums sell them as souvenir 'replicas'?

I am not aware of any museum selling replicas that can be taken for the real thing.

Besides, there is considerable time and effort going into making credible fakes, time and effort that needs to be worth. So it is the significant financial gain that is the main reason behind the fakes market.

asomotif · 13th July 2017, 12:04 PM

Good day,

I am far from an expert, but often willing to share my opinion and limited knowledge.
There have been several periods where people regained interest in the old mediaval times and when objects from this past where reproduced.

So this can be a reproduction made 100 years ago, or even older.

I am happy that my interest lays somehwere else.
For a inexperienced collector these old weapons are either tricky or expensive. or both if you are unlucky :-)

Check out the old posts on the forum. I am sure there is a lot to learn.

Best regards,
Willem

shayde78 · 18th July 2017, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

So this can be a reproduction made 100 years ago, or even older.

I am happy that my interest lays somehwere else.
For a inexperienced collector these old weapons are either tricky or expensive. or both if you are unlucky :-)

Check out the old posts on the forum. I am sure there is a lot to learn.

Best regards,
Willem

Thank you asomotif (and everyone else).

I have looked through the old threads that I could find. While very interesting, I am unable to find what details are the cues that a piece like this is fake. I suppose the general rule of thumb about not making risky purchases online, and based solely on pictures is the easy answer. But, since that is where I am likely to keep shopping, and since folks here were able to make a determination from pictures alone, what are the give-aways that make this an obvious fake?

As always, thank you for sharing your expertise.

27th June 2017, 04:36 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Relic condition European sword Hello. I am a long time 'lurker' and have spent some time trying to learn from the countless informative posts on here. Thank you all for the free education! This is my first post. I recently acquired an item that appears to be an old 13th-14th century Western European sword in rough stabilized excavated condition. I don't know how often these are faked, but there are a number of features that seem genuine to me. Pictures are below. I think it would qualify as a Type XII (Oakeshott), and looks to be nearly identical to the 5th example shown on this page ( http://myarmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html ) from the Nationalmuseet in Copenhagen. No visible makers marks remain. The fuller is sound, and continues past the guard up onto the hilt (as I have seen on other genuine items). The pommel is solid brass (or bronze) and has corrosion that seems consistent with the condition of the blade. The total length is 3' (each of the tiles in the pictures are 1'x1'). The balance seems right. The proportions seem right. Are these faked? If so, how does one tell? Thank you in advance for any feedback you can provide. Attached Images

30th June 2017, 03:05 AM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Please advise if there are specific views I can provide to allow for better analysis. I'm happy to post additional pictures. Thanks

1st July 2017, 03:40 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	I do recognize welding and the tang is made of mild steel welded to the cross guard. The blade may be authentic but the rest very questionable. Possibly an amateur restorer added the hilt.

3rd July 2017, 03:32 AM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you for applying an expert eye. Could you please point to the suspect features so that I can learn what to look out for? I'm curious how to tell from a photo that the tang is mild steel. Thanks again.

4th July 2017, 08:20 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, I am quite sure it is a modern fake. Sorry! Marius

13th July 2017, 02:04 AM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Out of curiosity, are these faked merely to dupe unwary collectors, or do museums sell them as souvenir 'replicas'?

13th July 2017, 12:04 PM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Good day, I am far from an expert, but often willing to share my opinion and limited knowledge. There have been several periods where people regained interest in the old mediaval times and when objects from this past where reproduced. So this can be a reproduction made 100 years ago, or even older. I am happy that my interest lays somehwere else. For a inexperienced collector these old weapons are either tricky or expensive. or both if you are unlucky :-) Check out the old posts on the forum. I am sure there is a lot to learn. Best regards, Willem