New yataghan

[erlikhan]

Hi.I acquired this yataghan recently. silver scabbard, walrus hilt and both sides silver inlay. length 83 cm. Has 1215 ( 1799) as date. can anybody translate the Arabic inscriptions please?

regards

[Battara]

Impressive. The silver work is in great shape.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

can anybody translate the Arabic inscriptions please?

Hi
on the first pic (from right to left) the date seem's to be 1315 more than 1215, anyway the hegire 1 is 622, either
1315 + 622 = 1937
1215 + 622 = 1837
but 1799 ??
the first group of letters could (?) be "Ali", the (?) because it's arabic alphabet letters, but without clear meaning,
the second group is not letters, just signs without arabic relation

on the second pic, all signs are not arabic letters , even if their design seems to be oriental
anyway, this yataghan is really wonderfull

à +

Dom

[ariel]

Dom,
You need to use conversion calendar: Islamic year is lunar!
Please check this:
http://www.oriold.unizh.ch/static/hegira.html


1215 H= 1800 Gregorian
1315 H = 1897 Gregorian
Lovely yataghan: somehow reminds me of Greek/Balkan origin: handle, dolphin, silverwork...

[erlikhan]

hi. I think Islamic calendar is not calculated so,we can't just add 622 to find the matching date in the other calendar. it differs around 11 days every year compared to Gregorian. otherwise it would be very easy
The discussed number on the sword has two tips going upward, if it was number 3, it should have three tips. it is carved quite crudely, thats why you think it is a "3" I guess. if it is 1215, it means something like 1799 or 1800 for sure. in 1890s-1900s nobody was making yataghans anymore. Which picture do you mean by "the second"? The second one containing silver inlaid figures, from up to down? Yes some of them are oriental decorations but, you think none of them are Arabic letters?
regards

[Tim Simmons]

Hello erilkhan, how very handsome and such lovely crisp silver work. I no nothing about the Islamic calendar but the formal borders of the cartouches and there contents have a strong European influence and the profusion of decoration makes me think of the latter part of the 19th cent. Where in the Islamic world do you think it comes from? How do you know the handle is walrus ivory? Tim

[Jens Nordlunde]

In one of my books I have found a way to make the calculation.
1221 AH. 1221*0.97+622 = 1806.
Hope it helps.

[erlikhan]

Jens, I know 1293 means 1877 as a certain date from the history, and went back accordingly to find something like 1799-1800 but I am not so sure after your correction. I hope there is somebody to say it exactly. Tim, it is from today's Turkey or its surrounding countries of former Ottoman empire,I guess Balkans if not Turkey. But the silver inlaid figures look Central Turkey,as I have seen several samples with the same style offered by local dealers from that region. They can be original to the blade or later, that I dont know, but I dont think they are after the 3rd quarter of 19 th c. I would like to know the translation of the inscriptions to have more accurate info. The hilt must be walrus, as the cracked-loking known structure of the walrus tooth core is seen in the inner parts.
regards

[ariel]

In addition to the site I've mentioned above, here is another one to convert Islamic/Gregorian dates with optimal precision:
http://www.rabiah.com/convert/convert.php3
Remember that checking both Month 1 and Month 12 is important: the dates within the same year of one calendar may fall into different years in another.
I added those to my Favourites and have been using them extensively: very easy.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ariel

Dom,
You need to use conversion calendar: Islamic year is lunar!
Please check this:
http://www.oriold.unizh.ch/static/hegira.html
1215 H= 1800 Gregorian
1315 H = 1897 Gregorian

I need badly to back to school
u r correct

à +

Dom

[erlikhan]

ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century .

[ariel]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century .

How very interesting: Japanese swords of 17th century (Shinto) are considered relatively new vs. really old stuff (Koto, before 1600).
I have a Kindjal dated 1181 H (about 1767 Gregorian) and it is the oldest Kindjal I've ever seen or heard about.
Why don't we, indeed, have older "Islamic" swords? What happened to them? Why such a difference vs. Japanese?

[Rivkin]

I think the preservation traditions of japanese swords+ the fact that there were no wars in Edo periods plaid an important role. Also, late Koto is not that rare because of mass production of that era... In the same time Muromachi and Kamakura are far more expensive.

Concerning ancient kindjals and caucasian swords... I also thought XVIII century to be as far as you can go until I visited couple of truly high-standing noblemen. XV-XVI century things in Georgia are really not that unusual, only the owners never sell and never shows these swords to anyone.

From what they told me, the collection of Tbilisi State Historical Museum should be outstanding... I definitely would like to make some contacts with people from there, I think they have the museum has a webpage or something.

[erlikhan]

Answer can be based on simple assumptions (I guess). Japanese kept their swords as an ancestral memory through generations, in fact they could do it. They didnt make continuous wars with other nations, didnt invade other countries and get invaded by others hundreds of times till the end of sword era, and their local wars didnt have cannon explosions helping swords to return safely from the wars . Swords of Islamic countries suffered these facts at their maximum ,were used to their full capacity,got worn and destroyed. In Turkey, most of any kind of edged weapons found were picked to plunder or destroy by invaders, or used by militia to defend their homeland in neverending invasions of early 20th c till 1922. over the country,even picked by the regular troops from civilians when there is no regular weapon around to use. In 18th and 19th c. periodically, when an economical crisis occured, State was ordering the return of silver items to the treasury, to melt them and mint coins. This was causing gorgeous weapons loose their mountings and become simple pieces of iron, very desirable to get rid of. Plus as they were part of European history too, they got popular earlier than Japanese swords , causing many to go into museum and private collections, and stay out of the market forever.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

From what they told me, the collection of Tbilisi State Historical Museum should be outstanding... I definitely would like to make some contacts with people from there, I think they have the museum has a webpage or something.

They dont have a website but here it is "something" you may have not seen

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Tbilisi

[ariel]

We have discussed it already. Stunning collection but in a sadly bad shape.
Rivkin, have you really seen Caucasian weapons of 15-16th century? I am awed!
How do they look? Did the old kindjals vary much from the more contemporary ones? Can you tell us more? Any pictures? Nothing on the subject in Astvatsaruryan's book.
BTW, the Atlant Publishing House in Moscow says there are plans to re-issue her books on Caucasian and Turkish weapons in English! That will be a great day for all collectors!!

[Rivkin]

Well, first of all, until recently I did believe that I had quite a collection of damascus kindjals. Now I think that I don't, but some of them have nice etchings . I can not be sure that kindjals I have seen were of XVI century; I've seen one dated sword that part of the signature in georgian, but again - could be some later fake, even through I doubt it. Since at the time I could not read arabic dates, I also have to take the owner's word concerning translation.

The stuff I've seen was very simple, no silver/niello, black horn, nicely laminated blades. The problem is that this all happened so many years ago and way before I started to research those things. I am trying to shake the ppls for pictures, but damn they lazy.

P.S. I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

P.P.S. How do you look at the idea of furthering our contacts with some of the museums ? There is also at least a dozen collectors I heard of, but never got in touch with.

[ariel]

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ariel

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

Caucasian weapons of 3000bc - 500 ad are rather well researched and described... I would guess there is a big problem with the fact that no literature available on the missing 500-1700ad, with Astvatsaturjan being essentially "caucasian weapons of XVIII-XIX century" book.

The problem with kindjals is that even 1000bc types are somewhat reminiscient of modern kindjals, and really there is not a lot of ways for one to make a short dagger. I would guess there should be a large greay area, where one can not say whether the dagger in question is archaic or "modern type" kindjal.


Can we see your kindjal, pretty please ?

[ariel]

Will do

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

Rivkin, unfortunately for me, your news are already old. I have write about it in this forum, following my own swap post, few months ago. I hope I knew it earlier. Now me and a friend of mine we have already 3 of his swords! I believe it was Ham the first person who noticed it.

Personally I don’t believe that it is the bladesmith’s fault. He signs his work, didn’t he? It is the dealers who I blame, because they sold them as antiques.

The great frustration about khevsur swords is that after this discovery we see with suspicion all of them. It is not fair. As you can see in the photos of the museum and in antique photos there are antique swords. In the future I am going to post in a new thread what I mean.

[ariel]

Here is my Kindjal as promised. Couldn't photograph the markings but you have to believe me: 1181H. The leather is new, the rest is original and in a very good shape. I do not want to polish the blade for fear of removing the markings.

[Rivkin]

Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords.

Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

[ariel]

I have been thinking about the origin myself...
The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...)
The form might be of help:
Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple .
I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard??
What do you think?

[Rivkin]

Well, I don't think "amale mussa" or something like this would help us even if it would appear on the scabbard.

1. I don't know if I understood you correctly - there is a mark on the blade, and it is not in arabic ? You suspect it's in chechen ??? I can have it translated, but I am really puzzled by this fact.

2. IMHO: it's definitely not chechen, most likely not dagestanian. I've seen too few circassian kindjals to say anything (I heard many times about shapsugian wide kindjals, but never seen one). Definitely not armenian, and not osethian. Georgian ? There is however one thing - we can make our judgement based on XIX century styles, but I don't think we have an extensive knowledge of earlier kindjals (I don't remember any pre XIX century kindjals in Astvatsaturjan). It may be that earlier niello was indeed more primitive than super-elaborate XIX century styles.

I would really like to see this mark you refer to.

[ham]

Gentlemen,

Actually, this is Chechen work. Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello.
After the Murid Wars, and increasingly into the early 20th century, Chechen work was also distinguishable by a sometimes random combination of these styles, with no particular one prevailing-- sorry to say, as time went on, the workmanship was rarely equal to either of its cultural ancestors. The motifs on the scabbard and lower grip mount of this kindjal are a simplified "spiral vine" often worked in fine relief by Kubachi smiths. Here, it has been deeply engraved into the silver and heavily embellished in niello. Unfortunately, neither the grip buttons nor the central decoration assist in establishing a place of origin as they are all associated-- the buttons from a belt and the central ornament from a horse trapping. This however indicates the paucity of materials in early 20th century Chechnia, and the desire to maintain traditional motifs. It is typical of Chechen weapons which survived the Revolution and First World War.
The grip of this dagger is also closely derived from a particularly popular Kubachi type usually rendered entirely in silver, ivory, or a combination thereof. Great store was set by heirloom blades, hence the appearance of an early date on the blade of the kindjal under discussion is not incredible though the mounts clearly postdate it.
Caucasian arms, perhaps more than any others save Indonesian, require a great deal of study of individual examples in order to begin to be able to categorize them. The Russian and Turkish museums afford the best selection for the serious student but can be difficult to gain access to. The works of Mrs. Astvatsaturian and Mr. Askhabov are likewise invaluable and now, thanks to the internet, generally available.
Posting an image of the mark on the blade would probably be very helpful.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Rivkin]

I did not find any kindjal like this in Astvatsaturjan or in my archives of ebay. Obviously I lack skills and knowledge to classify kindjals with great precision. My classification was based upon: the ornament, as you said, is not very dense. it is in circassian style, but definitely not circassian. It is also dissimilar to all examples (and here by knowledge is very limited) that I've seen, but the gut feeling would be towards eclectic Georgian origin.

I can not contest your identification (because I can not show a georgian kindjal like this, and frankly my idea of its origins is rather vague). But I can definitely contest the "Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. "

Narts are common for all northern caucasian nations. In my humble opinion, in the same time the chechen and circassian versions are the _most_ dissimilar to one another... They are dissimilar to the point that vocabularies used to quote for nart "in chechen and ingush myths - monster...".
Dumezil attributes narts in chechen myths specifically to osethian-chechen conflicts and interactions. The origin of narts is dark and unknown. Once, iranian and greek myths were thought to be the origin, but now, on the contrary, narts are thought by many to be older than most greek myths. At the same time, chechens are also one of the least nart-influenced nations. Christians, sun and fire-woshippers, but never I heard related to ancient chechens xabzeists or nartists. Clans that descend from Circassians do exist, but in the numbers that are way smaller than that of gurj, rusi, or even zhukty.
Culturally I would say they are also way more similar to avars and dagestanians (starting with vainakh language), than to Kabarda or Abaz. I find it hard to believe that their alliance with avars and Shamil can be attributed to georgaphy.