Spanish colonial bilbo

M ELEY · 29th September 2018, 07:24 AM

Here we have an interesting provincial piece made in the New World ca. mid- to late 18th using available parts and blacksmith ingenuity. The bilobate cup originally from a finer piece with etched dcoration to the guard. The blade from a cut-down broadsword perhaps 17th c.? Appears earlier. The mushroom shaped pommel resembling those found on Caribbean cup hilts, the plain wood grip wrapped in wire. Note the interesting pas 'd ann, recurved quillons braised together to form the 'arms of the hilt'.

M ELEY · 29th September 2018, 07:38 AM

There are tracings on the blade which unfortunately are illegible, perhaps 'Gorge'? 'Gerge'? You will also see a small cross on the blade near the hilt.

midelburgo · 16th October 2018, 10:44 PM

This is a poorly mauled 1728 model Spanish cavalry sword for officers. Its blade has the typical Solingen shape, usually by Enrique Coel or Gio Knegt (but the one below is from Mertens). 2 screws on the shells to me means older, but the rounder the shape of the shell means newer, so let's guess 1720-1740.

M ELEY · 18th October 2018, 09:44 AM

Thank you, Midelburgo, for your comments. You have narrowed down the time line for me. Still, I wasn't sure if you are indicating that you don't think this is Span colonial? I assumed from the brazing, wire wrapping, cut-down blade, etc, that this wasn't just a Spanish sword in poor repair, but a desparate edge-of-the-frontier piece-

midelburgo · 18th October 2018, 05:55 PM

Of course, it will be very difficult to pinpoint when the modifications were made, by whom and where. Brazing has been used for a long time.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2018, 06:01 AM

I am inclined to go with Mark's original assessment of this unusual composite as most probably assembled in a colonial shop in one of the Spanish colonies and in the time period he suggested. These blacksmiths accomplished remarkably serviceable swords using components at hand and creating guard elements like this to replicate a degree of then current patterns.

The 'cross' on the blade near the now indiscernible letters appears to be the 'anchor' device typically used on Solingen blades often used on swords in the colonies such as those with the Spanish motto ('draw me not without reason....etc). I have seen Spanish colonial swords fashioned in this manner using components from as many as three sword types.....but this one follows the so called 'bilbo' style well, simply without the quillons.

While the 1728 designates a year for the 'pattern' it is more the year the form was designated officially and was probably in use a time before, and certainly remained in use through the rest of the century. Actually in the colonies various 'patterns' of swords, including 'cuphilts' remained in use into the 19th century.

I have always thought Spanish colonial swords to have an inate rugged charm to them. They reflect the kind of individuals who did indeed desperately innovate and craft them for their survival as well as to preserve the traditions they held, even so far from their homeland.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2018, 06:04 AM

I am inclined to go with Mark's original assessment of this unusual composite as most probably assembled in a colonial shop in one of the Spanish colonies and in the time period he suggested. These blacksmiths accomplished remarkably serviceable swords using components at hand and creating guard elements like this to replicate a degree of then current patterns.

The 'cross' on the blade near the now indiscernible letters appears to be the 'anchor' device typically used on Solingen blades often used on swords in the colonies such as those with the Spanish motto ('draw me not without reason....etc). I have seen Spanish colonial swords fashioned in this manner using components from as many as three sword types.....but this one follows the so called 'bilbo' style well, simply without the quillons.

While the 1728 designates a year for the 'pattern' it is more the year the form was designated officially and was probably in use a time before, and certainly remained in use through the rest of the century. Actually in the colonies various 'patterns' of swords, including 'cuphilts' remained in use into the 19th century.

I have always thought Spanish colonial swords to have an inate rugged charm to them. They reflect the kind of individuals who did indeed desperately innovate and craft them for their survival as well as to preserve the traditions they held, even so far from their homeland.

Helleri · 30th October 2018, 01:36 AM

The rails appear to have been both soldered and brazed. Is this common or does it indicate an attempt at repair at some point past initial construction?

M ELEY · 30th October 2018, 09:13 AM

Hello Helleri,

It depends on your general consensus. Some would classify this as a m1728 cavalry sword that has been beat to Hades. Others believe this is always as it appeared, assembled and brazed/soldered in the Spanish colonies in the Americas. I guess either way the answer is, yes, it was a 'quick fix'. Weapons were so scarce that they were often assemblages of spare parts, with help from a colonial blacksmith, thus the brazing.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 07:55 PM

LOL! Mark.....'beat to Hades'!!! Only a novelist could bring such a perfect phrase into a discussion like this!! perfect!!
That is EXACTLY what many of not most of these colonial pieces are like.
While field repairs made on campaign were in degree crude, they were made by armorers well trained and with many like weapons on hand with which to get parts.
In colonial settings, these were often village blacksmiths, who were far more familiar with tools and implements and without the kinds of components usually required for repair. They relied on innovation and fabrication of replacement components, and crudely tried to imitate the elements of arms originally made by skilled artisans in well tooled shops.

As for the 1728 'pattern appellation' …….as we WELL know from piratical canons (not cannons!!)…...it was not really a set pattern of that year, but a GUIDELINE setting a regulation for the period it was officially recognized in use.

29th September 2018, 07:24 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Spanish colonial bilbo Here we have an interesting provincial piece made in the New World ca. mid- to late 18th using available parts and blacksmith ingenuity. The bilobate cup originally from a finer piece with etched dcoration to the guard. The blade from a cut-down broadsword perhaps 17th c.? Appears earlier. The mushroom shaped pommel resembling those found on Caribbean cup hilts, the plain wood grip wrapped in wire. Note the interesting pas 'd ann, recurved quillons braised together to form the 'arms of the hilt'. Attached Images

29th September 2018, 07:38 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	More pics There are tracings on the blade which unfortunately are illegible, perhaps 'Gorge'? 'Gerge'? You will also see a small cross on the blade near the hilt. Attached Images

16th October 2018, 10:44 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	This is a poorly mauled 1728 model Spanish cavalry sword for officers. Its blade has the typical Solingen shape, usually by Enrique Coel or Gio Knegt (but the one below is from Mertens). 2 screws on the shells to me means older, but the rounder the shape of the shell means newer, so let's guess 1720-1740. Attached Images

18th October 2018, 09:44 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you, Midelburgo, for your comments. You have narrowed down the time line for me. Still, I wasn't sure if you are indicating that you don't think this is Span colonial? I assumed from the brazing, wire wrapping, cut-down blade, etc, that this wasn't just a Spanish sword in poor repair, but a desparate edge-of-the-frontier piece-

18th October 2018, 05:55 PM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	Of course, it will be very difficult to pinpoint when the modifications were made, by whom and where. Brazing has been used for a long time.

19th October 2018, 06:01 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I am inclined to go with Mark's original assessment of this unusual composite as most probably assembled in a colonial shop in one of the Spanish colonies and in the time period he suggested. These blacksmiths accomplished remarkably serviceable swords using components at hand and creating guard elements like this to replicate a degree of then current patterns. The 'cross' on the blade near the now indiscernible letters appears to be the 'anchor' device typically used on Solingen blades often used on swords in the colonies such as those with the Spanish motto ('draw me not without reason....etc). I have seen Spanish colonial swords fashioned in this manner using components from as many as three sword types.....but this one follows the so called 'bilbo' style well, simply without the quillons. While the 1728 designates a year for the 'pattern' it is more the year the form was designated officially and was probably in use a time before, and certainly remained in use through the rest of the century. Actually in the colonies various 'patterns' of swords, including 'cuphilts' remained in use into the 19th century. I have always thought Spanish colonial swords to have an inate rugged charm to them. They reflect the kind of individuals who did indeed desperately innovate and craft them for their survival as well as to preserve the traditions they held, even so far from their homeland.

19th October 2018, 06:04 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I am inclined to go with Mark's original assessment of this unusual composite as most probably assembled in a colonial shop in one of the Spanish colonies and in the time period he suggested. These blacksmiths accomplished remarkably serviceable swords using components at hand and creating guard elements like this to replicate a degree of then current patterns. The 'cross' on the blade near the now indiscernible letters appears to be the 'anchor' device typically used on Solingen blades often used on swords in the colonies such as those with the Spanish motto ('draw me not without reason....etc). I have seen Spanish colonial swords fashioned in this manner using components from as many as three sword types.....but this one follows the so called 'bilbo' style well, simply without the quillons. While the 1728 designates a year for the 'pattern' it is more the year the form was designated officially and was probably in use a time before, and certainly remained in use through the rest of the century. Actually in the colonies various 'patterns' of swords, including 'cuphilts' remained in use into the 19th century. I have always thought Spanish colonial swords to have an inate rugged charm to them. They reflect the kind of individuals who did indeed desperately innovate and craft them for their survival as well as to preserve the traditions they held, even so far from their homeland.

30th October 2018, 01:36 AM	#8
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	The rails appear to have been both soldered and brazed. Is this common or does it indicate an attempt at repair at some point past initial construction?

30th October 2018, 09:13 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Helleri, It depends on your general consensus. Some would classify this as a m1728 cavalry sword that has been beat to Hades. Others believe this is always as it appeared, assembled and brazed/soldered in the Spanish colonies in the Americas. I guess either way the answer is, yes, it was a 'quick fix'. Weapons were so scarce that they were often assemblages of spare parts, with help from a colonial blacksmith, thus the brazing.

2nd November 2018, 07:55 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	LOL! Mark.....'beat to Hades'!!! Only a novelist could bring such a perfect phrase into a discussion like this!! perfect!! That is EXACTLY what many of not most of these colonial pieces are like. While field repairs made on campaign were in degree crude, they were made by armorers well trained and with many like weapons on hand with which to get parts. In colonial settings, these were often village blacksmiths, who were far more familiar with tools and implements and without the kinds of components usually required for repair. They relied on innovation and fabrication of replacement components, and crudely tried to imitate the elements of arms originally made by skilled artisans in well tooled shops. As for the 1728 'pattern appellation' …….as we WELL know from piratical canons (not cannons!!)…...it was not really a set pattern of that year, but a GUIDELINE setting a regulation for the period it was officially recognized in use.