Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th January 2011, 06:36 PM   #1
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile BIRD FORM KERIS HANDLES, SUMATRA

I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO INCLUDE ONLY BIRD FORM KERIS HANDLES FROM SUMATRA. I HAVE EXCLUDED THOSE OF THE KINGFISHER FORM AS MY UNDERSTANDING IS THEY ARE FROM MALAYSIA. I HAVE SEEN THEM REFERRED TO AS GARUDA HILTS, WOODPECKER (GAYO), AND HUMMINGBIRD. THERE SEEMS TO BE A WIDE VARIETY OF FORMS THE ONES I CONCENTRATED ON HERE WERE THOSE WITH LONG BEAKS. THERE ARE A LOT OF SHORT BEAKED FORMS BUT I AM NOT SURE THEY ARE FROM SUMATRA. THERE IS A FORM IDENTIFIED AS BUGIS FROM SULUWEZI THAT CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE OTHERS SO IS INCLUDED 3RD FROM BOTTOM. FEEL FREE TO REMOVE ANY OR IDENTIFY ANY EXAMPLES NOT FROM SUMATRA AND TO ADD PICTURES AND COMMENTS. THE FIRST ONE WAS IDENTIFIED AS WOODPECKER. TWO EXAMPLES HAVE A LIZZARD ON THE HEAD WHAT DOES THAT REPRESENT? I CROPPED AND REMOVED THE MADURA HANDLE.
Attached Images
            

Last edited by VANDOO; 28th January 2011 at 05:12 AM.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2011, 07:43 PM   #2
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

The one from ivory (Fig. 38) is from the north of Java or Madura and the one direct on the right from this is from Madura too.
Most of the shown handles are from Lampung apart from the first one, I think from Aceh or Gayo.

Regards,

Detlef

Last edited by Sajen; 27th January 2011 at 07:58 PM.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2011, 07:54 PM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Here some of mine, they was shown in a other thread before but here again. The last one have lost his beak long time ago.
Attached Images
     
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2011, 08:20 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Here a similar one like the first you have shown.
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2011, 08:52 PM   #5
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
Default

Here is my Burung.
Attached Images
 
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2011, 05:19 AM   #6
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE TWO DIFFERENT VIEWS, AND ONE DESCRIBED AS NEW BUGIS AND THE LAST ONE WAS LABELED TEGAL I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS??
I AM SURPRIZED AT THE VARIETY OF THESE ITS A PLEASURE TO SEE THEM.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by VANDOO; 28th January 2011 at 04:58 PM.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2011, 02:17 PM   #7
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Barry, i suspect that your last one here might not have been intended as a bird, but instead one of the long nosed wayang character. I have a similar example which i definitely do not interpret as a bird.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2011, 04:56 PM   #8
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT TO BE SURE BUT I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT. I CERTIANLY SEE NO BIRD IN YOUR EXCELLENT EXAMPLE, THE ONE I POSTED HAS A LOT OF CARVED DESIGN ON THE FACE AND HEAD (FEATHERS OR HAIR)??
BUT BOTH SHURELY HAVE A BIG BEAK , I THINK I WILL NAME HIM CYRANO
DOES THE WAYANG CHARACTER HAVE QUALITIES LIKE CYRANO
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2011, 04:59 PM   #9
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

When the "beak" turns upward like both these example do i tend to question the bird attribution. Same goes for the tajong hilts which have long been described (mistakenly i believe) as "kingfisher" hilts.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 12:52 AM   #10
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

HERE ARE A COUPLE MORE OF BIRD FORM, I AM NOT SURE WHERE THEY ARE FROM. THE IVORY PARROT IS IN THE COLLECTION IN THE K. L. MUSEUM. PERHAPS YOU HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE? BUT I DON'T GET TIRED OF LOOKING AT IT SO ENJOY
Attached Images
  
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 01:01 AM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
Default

Barry, Tegal is a town in Jawa.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 07:31 PM   #12
sirek
Member
 
sirek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 169
Arrow

A polychrome cockatoo, from Bali

(or some sort of parrot species )
Attached Images
  
sirek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 07:52 PM   #13
GIO
Member
 
GIO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 313
Default

Here is my cockatoo.
Sumatra ? peninsular ? composite ?
Attached Images
 
GIO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 07:56 PM   #14
GIO
Member
 
GIO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirek
A polychrome cockatoo, from Bali

(or some sort of parrot species )
Sirek, are you sure it is from Bali ?
I respectfully have my doubts
GIO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 08:13 PM   #15
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Here's a recent Madura example i have shown before.
Gio, your blade certainly looks peninsula. Can't say for the hilt though.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 08:47 PM   #16
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIO
Here is my cockatoo.
Sumatra ? peninsular ? composite ?
Very very nice. IMO peninsular
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 08:55 PM   #17
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Just a couple of zoological notes:

--Hummingbirds are strictly new world. The Indonesian equivalents are sunbirds.

The other, more interesting question is why no one mentions hornbills in this context. The ones posted by Vandoo, VVV, and Sajen certainly look like hornbills to me.

Best,

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 09:50 PM   #18
sirek
Member
 
sirek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 169
Arrow

the story of the seller was: that he originally comes from bali
and that all parts belong together and are not composed

but I'm not knowledgeable enough to confirm this ,

but I would like to hear someone else's opinion if the seller was wrong
Attached Images
  
sirek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 10:21 PM   #19
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

I AGREE THE HORNBILL AND KINGFISHER BOTH HAVE A LOT MORE CULTURAL IMPORTANCE IN THOSE AREAS. THE KERIS IN QUESTION WAS IDENTIFIED AS A HUMMINGBIRD KERIS IN THE BOOK BUT I WONDERED IF IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A HORNBILL SUCH AS THIS ONE.
ITS TOO BAD THEY DON'T HAVE NATIVE HUMMINGBIRDS AS NOTHING ELSE CAN FLY LIKE THEY DO AND THEY ARE PRETTY LITTLE CRITTERS. I GUESS ITS ONLY FAIR AS WE DON'T HAVE HORNBILLS OVER HERE.

EVERYONE SURE HAS SOME BEAUTIFUL AND UNUSUAL KERIS. THE LAST ONE IS SURE NEAT IT HAS PHOENIX AND A LOBSTER OR SCORPION? I HAD NOT SEEN THAT BEFORE. I HAVENT SEEN ONE WITH A STORK FOR FERTILITY YET
Attached Images
 
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 12:56 AM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirek
the story of the seller was: that he originally comes from bali
and that all parts belong together and are not composed

but I'm not knowledgeable enough to confirm this ,

but I would like to hear someone else's opinion if the seller was wrong
I am fairly confident in stating that your blade is not a Bali or Lombok blade. The dress is also not like any Bali dress i know either by motif or design, though the shape of the sheath is somewhat similar to the Bali gayaman style sheaths. But it looks more likely to be from Madura is regards to the carving (though given the lobster motif it might be from Nova Scotia )
The blade certainly looks Bugis to my eyes.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 01:03 AM   #21
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
Default

Sirek, i photo shopped a little of the detail into your shot for better reference.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 09:10 AM   #22
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
Default

Indeed, a Bugis blade IMHO.

The fittings look post-WW2 to me. To me the Bugis blade and fittings with Bali influence makes an origin from Lombok quite probable (with a more recent Madura composite being the other possibility); the non-traditional motifs may make it difficult to prove it one way or the other though.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 10:52 AM   #23
sirek
Member
 
sirek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 169
Arrow

Thank you for your effort and comment,

it's always nice to hear other opinions especially because I am not as experienced as most members.

I am convinced that the selling party has not always correct and complete information, but by the shape and size (and of course the story of the seller) I thought I recognized a Bali shape.
but it is possible to be completely different, therefore I appreciate the comment
sirek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2011, 01:40 AM   #24
Laowang
Member
 
Laowang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: 40˚00' N, 83˚00' W
Posts: 52
Default

Adding my avatar to the collection. Not technically a bird-form, although certainly close enough in resemblance. Indragiri, I think.
Attached Images
 
Laowang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2011, 10:05 PM   #25
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Indeed, a Bugis blade IMHO.

The fittings look post-WW2 to me. To me the Bugis blade and fittings with Bali influence makes an origin from Lombok quite probable (with a more recent Madura composite being the other possibility); the non-traditional motifs may make it difficult to prove it one way or the other though.

Regards,
Kai
Agree complete with you Kai. One thing is to add maybe, the selut seems not to fit well with the hilt.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.