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22nd February 2012, 07:41 PM
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#1 |
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Member
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Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
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BLUNDERBUSS FROM YORK MAIL
Hello everybody,
Could someone tell me more about this blunderbuss. I would like to know if it is a work from XVIII or XIX TH century and I will be happy if I could learn more about this weapon. Thank you in advance Cerjak |
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22nd February 2012, 08:05 PM
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#2 |
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(deceased)
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Hi Cerjak,
Congratulations: this is a very nice, sturdy and obviously historically remarkable English flintlock blunderbuss of ca. 1790; please note the shape of the lock parts and the sliding safety catch left of the cock. The inscriptions, especially on the impressive muzzle face, suggest that it once was used by a postman of the Royal York Mail. Unfortunately I could not identify the proof marks. Just imagine you were a late 18th-c. highway man trying to mind your 'business', and all of a sudden had to face this muzzle loaded with eight to ten musket balls - reading the inscription while the dog was cocked!   What bore is it? Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd February 2012 at 08:55 PM. |
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22nd February 2012, 08:26 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 669
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Hola, Cerjak:
Tengo mas dudas que certezas.....Me parece que es una falsificación, o al menos, un trabuco al que se le ha agregado leyendas. YORK MAIL está punzonado con punzones completos,(cada letra) cuando lo habitual era que se fuera armando con punzones simples. Lo mismo para la inscripción HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, cuando lo habitual era HAPPY HE HE ESCAPES ME. El punzón que imita al punzón del Banco de Pruebas (London o Birmingham) no creo que perteneciera a un arma oficial, de la corona.... Es solo una opinión Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, Cerjak: I have more doubts than certainties ..... I think it's a fake, or at least, a blunderbuss where inscriptions were added. YORK MAIL is stamped with loose punctions when it was usual to engrave continuous lettering. Same for the inscription HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, contrary to the usual HAPPY HE ESCAPES ME. The punction that imitates the Proof house marks (London or Birmingham), i do not think it belonged to an official crown gun .... It's just an opinion Affectionately. Fernando K Last edited by fernando; 22nd February 2012 at 08:50 PM. |
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22nd February 2012, 08:56 PM
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#4 |
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(deceased)
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Location: Portugal
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... And i am no linguist but, i guess it should be either His Majesty or Their Majesties, right ?
 Probably the phrase was not written by an english speaking person ?  A nice blunderbuss, in any case
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22nd February 2012, 08:57 PM
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#5 |
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(deceased)
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... And the lock doesn't have the slightest mark
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22nd February 2012, 10:56 PM
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#6 | |
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Quote:
http://www.lukehistory.com/resources/yorkdec.html Regards Cerjak |
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22nd February 2012, 11:23 PM
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#7 |
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See this other link it is old English ?
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22nd February 2012, 11:45 PM
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#8 |
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(deceased)
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Yes, you are right.
It is old english for the possessive case; in the new morphology the ' replaced the e. |
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23rd February 2012, 12:17 AM
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#9 |
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Interesting piece Fernando, The font used on the end of the muzle, bieng totaly sans serif dates post late 1870s when it first started to be used, as far as my observations have taken me. {other than on fake markings of course.} {But such font was still rare untill the 20th century.}.}
The "perhaps" older font used on top of the barrel is clearly done with individual stamps, i have no evidence otherwise for york mail but as the average wood worker could afford stamps cut by an engineer of there entire name, I suspect York Mail could as well. {Especialy as many such stamps were actualy made in Sheffield, Yorkshire.} I vote XXI century For the markings, I am not capable of dating the piece itself. Spiral |
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23rd February 2012, 01:48 AM
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#10 |
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A very nice and interesting piece, BUT those marks bother me. IF it is truely an English piece then it SHOULD BY LAW have English Proof marks unless it was made prior to 1630ish. The official Proof House was established around then and official marks started to appear.
The marks on this Blunderbus are not English IMHO unless they are some sort or local Armorers mark. Also it is unusual for the lock not to be marked. Have you given any thought to this not being YORK UK, but (New)York USA? Don't forget that the Brits held sway there until 1776,and would no doubt have run some sort of mail service to their troops. British Proof laws did not (and still don't) have any meaning in the US. Hopefully someone can identify the marks as I for one would like to know more about this piece. As an aftertought, have you checked UNDER the barrel for marks? If you can safely remove it, then it might possibly give up some secrets. The other thing which concerns me a bit is the relatively unblemished lock. A look at the inside of that might also give up some secrets. Regards Stuart. Last edited by kahnjar1; 23rd February 2012 at 05:07 AM. |
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23rd February 2012, 08:37 PM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
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Blunderbuss
Any blunderbuss displaying supposed Royal Mail ownership markings has to
be viewed with a large degree of scepticism, due to the significant boost to its value granted by an authentic association. I am afraid that I don't think that the Mail related script on this piece is remotely genuine, being quite wrong stylistically and not particularly well executed. The highly respected London gunmaker H. W. Mortimer was an early contractor supplying arms for guards on Royal Mail Coaches circa 1783. An example garniture of arms supplied by Mortimer can be viewed at the National Postal Museum. Mortimer was a top quality gunmaker, and this is reflected in the standard of the guns he supplied to the Crown, the better to withstand the rigours of the Coaching service. I don't feel that this blunderbuss exhibits the high standards of manufacture that would be expected in a Government contract piece. The better quality English makers from this period were justifiably proud of their workmanship and took pains to carefully mark their products, and clear British proofs would be present too. Perhaps removing the lock and barrel from the stock as suggested in an earlier post will shed some light on this gun's origins. Whilst the general appearance suggests an English blunderbuss dating from the 1780s, I'm a little concerned about the the signs of artificial ageing on the handrail stock and what looks like cold blue wash on the lockplate. It's an uncomfortable fact that blunderbusses because of their value and popularity are frequently spuriously marked and faked. I hope that this has not disheartened you too much, but if you paid a premium for this gun as a genuine Royal Mail piece you have good grounds for the return of your money if it was auction or dealer purchased. Best regards,Simon. |
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24th February 2012, 08:21 AM
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#12 | |
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Quote:
Not that it makes that big of a difference, though I guess it would move a hypothetical window for the origin of the stamps a little closer to the age of the gun... 
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24th February 2012, 02:35 PM
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#13 | |
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(deceased)
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Quote:
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24th February 2012, 03:52 PM
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#14 |
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(deceased)
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Maybe this is an Indian reproduction ...
m |
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24th February 2012, 03:59 PM
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#15 | |
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Quote:
Spiral |
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24th February 2012, 06:27 PM
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#16 | |
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Quote:
 Edward Barnes & Sons was a prolific maker who opened their shop in Sheffield in or around 1833, and were active until the end of the 3rd quarter of the century. However, by the time of the Civil War, it was common to find "Sheffield" stamped along with the maker's name and/or trademark, and there is no shortage of examples made in or around 1850 that were already stamped "Sheffield" along with the maker's name. One note: I cannot speak with absolute certitude that this knife dates as early as I believe it to, and it is entirely possible that I am mistaken with regards to my date attribution. Furthermore, I have known more than one example contemporary to this knife - and even later - in which serif fonts were still used in the dye stamps. I also have lying around somewhere an old Thomas Gill file knife, old enough to still employ an etched trademark, but with a "... Warranted ..." stamp that uses sans serif fonts as well, though it may take a bit of digging to find that one...  One final note - if Wiki is to be trusted, the first documented use of the term 'sans serif' by a foundry in England to describe such a font was in 1830. If this is valid, one has to assume the font existed before the label which came into use to describe it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-se...tin_characters
Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 24th February 2012 at 07:17 PM. |
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24th February 2012, 06:39 PM
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#17 |
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(deceased)
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Hi folks,
Are you sure that these posts on knives are placed in the right thread on a blunderbuss?! Best, Michael |
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24th February 2012, 06:45 PM
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#18 | |
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Quote:
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24th February 2012, 07:16 PM
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#19 | |
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Quote:
I would humbly argue it is relevant in the context of the question surrounding the font type that appears in the stamp(s) used on the muzzle... While it is commonly accepted that such font types did not appear until the 4th quarter of the 19th century, there seem to be multiple examples of the use of such a font well before the 'accepted' timeframe... The presence of possible evidence supportive of an earlier (though surely uncommon) use of such a font type in dye stamps might prevent us from prematurely dismissing the stamps as inauthentic. That being said, I recently saw at auction two very well done fakes, including a pistol that incorporated an original barrel but with questionable (if not altogether spurious) markings... |
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24th February 2012, 07:31 PM
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#20 |
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(deceased)
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Agreed, EspadaAncha,
Thanks! I guess we would all like to see those two fakes you mentioned! How about posting them after the auction is over? Best, Michael |
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24th February 2012, 07:57 PM
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#21 | |
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Quote:
I will let you know Thank you for your help Very interesting comment ! I have learn a lot since I have joined this forum ! REGARDS CERJAK |
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24th February 2012, 08:04 PM
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#22 | |
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Quote:
The auction took place either in December or January, and I think - "think" being the operative word - I archived some photos of the piece or pieces in question. I'll search for them later today, and will definitely post them if I can find them... Cheers, Chris |
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25th February 2012, 06:37 PM
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#23 |
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Hi Chris,
With most auction houses, past sales can still be traced in their archives - so I really look foward to seeing those! Best, Michael |
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26th February 2012, 12:18 AM
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#24 |
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Hi Michael,
Being a small, regional house, I had assumed they didn't archive their past auction lots, but fortunately, I was wrong. Here's the one I thought long and hard about, as I really *wanted* to believe it was legitimate, but the gestalt was off... way off. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts... while sharp and pointy objects are well within my comfort zone, I am (overly) cautious about antique firearms. Someone such as yourself with far greater knowledge might pick up on clues that are invisible to me... Best, Chris |
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26th February 2012, 02:15 PM
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#25 |
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(deceased)
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Thank you, Chris,
Sadly I am not expert enough to really competently comment on this. 18th century Mediterranean miquelet guns are too far out of my range of expertise. So please forgive me for not being able to utter any substantial cristicism on this item. Stylistically, I cannot trace out really dubious aspects. Gentlemen, I know we have a few experts here - would you like to comment? Best, Michael |
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26th February 2012, 02:42 PM
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#26 | |
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Quote:
Cerjak |
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26th February 2012, 06:10 PM
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#27 |
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Thank you Cerjak & Michael for your thoughts, and Cerjak, I apologize for the digression from the stated topic of the thread: your beautiful blunderbuss.
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26th February 2012, 06:19 PM
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#28 | |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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New Wood ?
Quote:
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26th February 2012, 07:55 PM
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#29 |
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(deceased)
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Gentlemen, I beg to differ.
I may not match your expertise in 18th century arms but over more than 35 years I have collected hundreds of 14th-17th century guns, related items and Gothic and Renaissance iron work, let alone completely dismantled many hundreds of 18th-19th items and passed expert opinions on them. I cannot see any argument why the iron parts and the stock (the original polish was probably taken off the latter) should be fake. Who on earth should do that - and why? Imagine the price you can possibly get ... Best, Michael |
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27th February 2012, 12:05 AM
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#30 |
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Thank You laEspadaAncha, unfortuantly to my eyes the appaling fit of blade to guard & hilt to guard as well as the use of brass as a guard to me eye looks even without the late font looks to be more likely 1970s Pakistan made item, rather than 19th century Sheffield
Perhaps I am wrong though? I would recomend Bernard Levines forum on bladeforums for a more "solid" opinion though, Hes an ornery old chap but has a great knowledge of old Sheffield pieces. { As do one or two others there including a chap who now a collector was a cutler in Sheffield many decades ago.} Spiral |
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