Shilluk club

Tim Simmons · 23rd July 2016, 02:34 PM

This arrived this morning. Going back to old habits acquiring an African piece. Not rare but we have not view one for some years. Beautiful form, balance, and most of all patina. 79cm long, 990g. Shown with one I have had for many years {1.300kg} which cost 3 times as much so I am very happy. What is so good about this collecting is the learning. This new piece has prompted me to do more research into the Shilluk. Finding that it was a kingdom with a capital Fashoda. The Fashoda incident has come to my knowledge through collecting. You will not learn that in school history. Is a school history qualification worth anything ?

colin henshaw · 24th July 2016, 07:28 PM

A nice example of this type of club from Southern Sudan, which was also used by the Dinka and Nuer.

Wodimi · 25th July 2016, 12:29 PM

Dinka and Nuer is absolutely right. Shilluk clubs look quite different.

here Dinka: http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...4100-84344172/
and http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...100-105643443/

and here Shilluk: http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...4100-84346731/

I agree with the school learning :-)

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2016, 02:08 PM

I do not want to split hairs but the Pitt-Rivers has Shilluk examples along which the other mentioned peoples. Wodimi, great web site, one or two familiar pieces?

http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda...119/index.html
http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda...118/index.html
http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda....15/index.html

VANDOO · 25th July 2016, 06:44 PM

I KNOW VERY LITTLE OF AFRICAN CLUBS OR TRIBES SO WILL ASK PERHAPS A SILLY QUESTION. IS SCHILLUK A TRIBE OR PERHAPS A WORD USED TO DESCRIBE CLUBS IN GENERAL SORT OF LIKE WADI AND OTHER LIKE TERMS. THE DIFFERENCES SHOWN IN CLUB FORMS SOME CALLED DINKA AND OTHERS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REFERRED TO AS SCHILLUK MAKE ME ASK.

NICE CLUBS BY THE WAY TIM.

kronckew · 25th July 2016, 09:59 PM

My dinka/shilluk club thread

the pitts river references seem to indicate they were mostly used as 'slave clubs' to discipline captives. not the most PC occupation nowadays. The Shilluk Kingdom was located along the banks of the White Nile river in modern South Sudan. Its capital and royal residence was in the town of Fashoda

Wodimi · 26th July 2016, 03:30 AM

Tim, sorry to say, but this Donald Gunn was wrong, or Pitt Rivers (where much stuff is wrong labeled). Gunn collected at Bor. A little town where you can't find only one Shilluk, they are more north. Bor is Dinka region.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilluk_people
Capital town of the Shilluk Fashoda is right, it's today Kodok north from Malakal.
Here akso a good ethnic map http://mapeastafrica.com/wp-content/...UDYAREAETH.jpg .

Last not least a Dinka warrior in more modern times, but with his old club.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32977742@N08/3178521767

Tim Simmons · 26th July 2016, 07:55 AM

I'm liking it Wodimi. The trouble when revered institutions like Pitt-Rivers gets things wrong. The errors are perpetuated as staff come and go over time. The gravitas of the institution does not encourage revision or questioning.

Shilluk.

colin henshaw · 27th July 2016, 01:12 PM

Here is an old image of Shilluk warriors for consideration. They appear to be holding "torpedo-shape" clubs, similar to the type posted by Tim. The warrior on the right is also holding a "mushroom-head" club, a pattern more usually associated with the Shilluk...

Wodimi · 29th July 2016, 12:54 AM

interesting, but also strange. Maybe made by a studio photographer in Khartoum, for sure not in a Shilluk village, because of the brick wall in the background.

kronckew · 29th July 2016, 10:54 AM

the curved bottom of the white wall section above the bricks looks distinctive. possibly someone will recognise it. looks like it should be a big white circle potentially with writing.

the middle man's hat reminds me of a popular kids toy. the other two look like they were shot from above with a large suction cup headed arrow. i wouldn't be wearing those. to each his own tho. cool spears...

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2016, 06:18 PM

I think that is just a photographers white sheet back drop. I would be interested, has anybody got information on the relations of Southern Sudan kingdoms and the Mahdi rebellion. In a brief search on the internet It appears that the Shilluk resisted the Mahdist Islam. However we have seen Mahdi Islam influenced weapons from as far away as the Congo.

colin henshaw · 29th July 2016, 07:26 PM

Here are a couple more Shilluk images of warriors. They seem to be carrying clubs of a similar style to those posted by Tim, but a bit longer.

Greg · 30th July 2016, 06:31 PM

Here's few sudanese clubs from my collection, from the top:
1. Shilluk, 2. Dinka, 3-4. probably Dinka + Shilluk warrior.

colin henshaw · 2nd August 2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think that is just a photographers white sheet back drop. I would be interested, has anybody got information on the relations of Southern Sudan kingdoms and the Mahdi rebellion. In a brief search on the internet It appears that the Shilluk resisted the Mahdist Islam. However we have seen Mahdi Islam influenced weapons from as far away as the Congo.

Rudolph Slatin (a captive of the Mahdists for several years), mentions this subject in his book "Fire and Sword in the Sudan", 1896. It seems the Mahdists at first left the Shilluks and Dinkas unmolested, however the territory of the Shilluks was later invaded and its people harshly subjugated. I attach some relevant extracts from the book.

I believe that even before the Mahdist regime, the Shilluk people had been the subject of slaving raids from the north.

Rumpel · 3rd August 2016, 01:09 PM

Worth noting that the Shilluk still exist, and still practise kingship along traditional lines.

There's some interesting footage here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2BPF58HD4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC43GCGIneM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHBqUHSAJng

Tim Simmons · 3rd August 2016, 07:59 PM

Thanks for all contributions. This is intesting, it seems the Turks are the first to have a disruptive hand in Shilluk Land.

http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/...au1.1.016/1112

23rd July 2016, 02:34 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Shilluk club This arrived this morning. Going back to old habits acquiring an African piece. Not rare but we have not view one for some years. Beautiful form, balance, and most of all patina. 79cm long, 990g. Shown with one I have had for many years {1.300kg} which cost 3 times as much so I am very happy. What is so good about this collecting is the learning. This new piece has prompted me to do more research into the Shilluk. Finding that it was a kingdom with a capital Fashoda. The Fashoda incident has come to my knowledge through collecting. You will not learn that in school history. Is a school history qualification worth anything ? Attached Images

25th July 2016, 12:29 PM	#3
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	club from Sudan Dinka and Nuer is absolutely right. Shilluk clubs look quite different. here Dinka: http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...4100-84344172/ and http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...100-105643443/ and here Shilluk: http://www.africanarms.com/alle-albe...4100-84346731/ I agree with the school learning :-)

25th July 2016, 09:59 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	My dinka/shilluk club thread the pitts river references seem to indicate they were mostly used as 'slave clubs' to discipline captives. not the most PC occupation nowadays. The Shilluk Kingdom was located along the banks of the White Nile river in modern South Sudan. Its capital and royal residence was in the town of Fashoda Attached Images

26th July 2016, 03:30 AM	#7
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Dinka club Tim, sorry to say, but this Donald Gunn was wrong, or Pitt Rivers (where much stuff is wrong labeled). Gunn collected at Bor. A little town where you can't find only one Shilluk, they are more north. Bor is Dinka region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilluk_people Capital town of the Shilluk Fashoda is right, it's today Kodok north from Malakal. Here akso a good ethnic map http://mapeastafrica.com/wp-content/...UDYAREAETH.jpg . Last not least a Dinka warrior in more modern times, but with his old club. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32977742@N08/3178521767

26th July 2016, 07:55 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I'm liking it Wodimi. The trouble when revered institutions like Pitt-Rivers gets things wrong. The errors are perpetuated as staff come and go over time. The gravitas of the institution does not encourage revision or questioning. Shilluk. Attached Images

24th July 2016, 07:28 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	A nice example of this type of club from Southern Sudan, which was also used by the Dinka and Nuer.

25th July 2016, 02:08 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not want to split hairs but the Pitt-Rivers has Shilluk examples along which the other mentioned peoples. Wodimi, great web site, one or two familiar pieces? http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda...119/index.html http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda...118/index.html http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/southernsuda....15/index.html

25th July 2016, 06:44 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I KNOW VERY LITTLE OF AFRICAN CLUBS OR TRIBES SO WILL ASK PERHAPS A SILLY QUESTION. IS SCHILLUK A TRIBE OR PERHAPS A WORD USED TO DESCRIBE CLUBS IN GENERAL SORT OF LIKE WADI AND OTHER LIKE TERMS. THE DIFFERENCES SHOWN IN CLUB FORMS SOME CALLED DINKA AND OTHERS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REFERRED TO AS SCHILLUK MAKE ME ASK. NICE CLUBS BY THE WAY TIM.

27th July 2016, 01:12 PM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Here is an old image of Shilluk warriors for consideration. They appear to be holding "torpedo-shape" clubs, similar to the type posted by Tim. The warrior on the right is also holding a "mushroom-head" club, a pattern more usually associated with the Shilluk... Attached Images

29th July 2016, 12:54 AM	#10
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	interesting, but also strange. Maybe made by a studio photographer in Khartoum, for sure not in a Shilluk village, because of the brick wall in the background.

29th July 2016, 10:54 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the curved bottom of the white wall section above the bricks looks distinctive. possibly someone will recognise it. looks like it should be a big white circle potentially with writing. the middle man's hat reminds me of a popular kids toy. the other two look like they were shot from above with a large suction cup headed arrow. i wouldn't be wearing those. to each his own tho. cool spears... Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 29th July 2016 at 11:06 AM.

29th July 2016, 06:18 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think that is just a photographers white sheet back drop. I would be interested, has anybody got information on the relations of Southern Sudan kingdoms and the Mahdi rebellion. In a brief search on the internet It appears that the Shilluk resisted the Mahdist Islam. However we have seen Mahdi Islam influenced weapons from as far away as the Congo.

29th July 2016, 07:26 PM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Here are a couple more Shilluk images of warriors. They seem to be carrying clubs of a similar style to those posted by Tim, but a bit longer. Attached Images

30th July 2016, 06:31 PM	#14
Greg Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 12	Here's few sudanese clubs from my collection, from the top: 1. Shilluk, 2. Dinka, 3-4. probably Dinka + Shilluk warrior. Attached Images

3rd August 2016, 01:09 PM	#16
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Worth noting that the Shilluk still exist, and still practise kingship along traditional lines. There's some interesting footage here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2BPF58HD4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC43GCGIneM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHBqUHSAJng

3rd August 2016, 07:59 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks for all contributions. This is intesting, it seems the Turks are the first to have a disruptive hand in Shilluk Land. http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/...au1.1.016/1112