keris for sharing and comment

semar · 2nd April 2010, 12:22 PM

keris from solo
whit karna tinandung

regards semar

ganjawulung · 3rd April 2010, 06:18 AM

Just my humble opinion, Semar, your keris could be a 11 luks keris of carita keprabon (with sekar kacang, one jenggot and two lambe gajah) but "tinanding" (two sekar kacang), and not 9 luks. You may look at the tip of the blade -- it looks like too long, enough for one more short luk. (Please I apologize, if I'm mistaken...)

You may compare with my 11 luks (picture below) with two sekar kacangs too..

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 3rd April 2010, 07:44 AM

This is an interesting post Pak Ganja.

Tell me, what do you understand from the name "karno tinandhing" ?

Karno is "ear", but what about tinandhing?

I don't understand the word, I have just asked four native speakers of Javanese, one from Solo, three from East Jawa, and none of them can give any sense to the word.

I've even had a look at several dictionaries. I cannot find it at all.

We 've got "nandhing", which I think is probably low dialect for "compare" but "ti" is not a regularised prefix, and "compare" doesn't make sense --- I think.

So tell me, what do you think "karno tinandhing" means?

Looking at this keris of Semar's, there are a couple of things that strike my eye:- the distance from final luk to point, the apparent nature of the pamor, the odd little projections above the kembang kacangs, the method of workmanship.

Then there is the mendak and the wrongko.

Where do you think this keris might be from?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd April 2010, 09:05 AM

It has just struck me that we're actually looking at Kawi here.

Is "tinandhing" "ti - nan - dhing" :- "to work extremely hard until finished " ?

If so, and we add "ear", what is the sense of this?

Then consider the tuah.

ganjawulung · 3rd April 2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tell me, what do you understand from the name "karno tinandhing" ?
Karno is "ear", but what about tinandhing?
I don't understand the word, I have just asked four native speakers of Javanese, one from Solo, three from East Jawa, and none of them can give any sense to the word.
I've even had a look at several dictionaries. I cannot find it at all.
We 've got "nandhing", which I think is probably low dialect for "compare" but "ti" is not a regularised prefix, and "compare" doesn't make sense --- I think.
So tell me, what do you think "karno tinandhing" means?

This is about one of my favorite wayang idol I liked, Alan, when I was a little kid in Solo at the end of 50's. Quite a couple of times, I watched "wayang wong" (wayang play, but was played by real human. Traditional wayang theater) in Sriwedari, once popular people's park in the center of Solo city. There were a lot of Mahabharata stories played in this park, and the one I liked very much was the story of "Karna Tanding" or you may say also as the more correct word "Karna Tinanding".

Infix "in" to a basic word of "tanding" --- tinanding, shows a passive voice of the verb "tanding" (to match --- to be matched). This act of "wayang wong" on Karna Tinanding was about the match between two brothers of the same mother, Dewi Kunti. And the match was between Karna -- the first son of Kunti but was born via ear, with the magic power of Kunti's guru Resi Druwasa -- against the third son of Kunti, named as Arjuna. Karna was the son of Batara Surya (god of the sun), and Arjuna was the son of Batara Indra (god of the moon). In the end of the story -- the very long long and tiring match between the two brothers -- Karna was dead in the hand of Arjuna, by a magic arrow named Pasupati but was helped by a powerful god in wayang story, Dewa Wisnu. Both of them were riding chariot pulled by several horses. The coachman of Karna was Prabu Salya, an Astina (the left kingdom of Kurawa or you may say too, Astina) noble man, and Arjuna's coachman was Prabu Kresna one king of Pandawa (the right kingdom of Amarta or you may say too, as Pandawa) from Dwarawati kingdom. Kresna, actually was the incarnation of Dewa Wisnu -- the god of life -- in the wayang world.

Yes, you are right, Karna means "ear". Because, Basukarna -- the name of Arjuna's brother but served as a noble man in the opposite kingdom of the left, Astina (Kurawa) was born from Dewi Kunti's ear. (In the modern days of Indonesia, usually we differ to mention Karna as the brother of Arjuna, and Karno as the name of the first President of the Indonesia Republic, Bung Karno...)

So, I think the naming of keris dhapur bears name "tinanding" comes from this very popular story (in Java) of Mahabharata. The fight between the two brothers. No wonder, if the manifestation in keris' details is the two sekar kacang in one blade...

There are some keris dhapurs, bear name "tinanding". One of the most popular is "karna tinanding", a straight dhapur with two sekar kacang, two jalen and four lambe gajah, two pejetan, two tikel alis and two kruwingan..

And the other dhapur is "carang candhala tinanding" (you may see in the collection of a Solonese nobleman, Pangeran Koesoemadiningrat, as pictured in the book of Jasper and Pirngadie in Dutch language, "De Inlandsche Kunstnijverheid in Nederlaandsch Indie" 1930, page 209. A beautiful dhapur of keris I've ever known, 9 luks keris with straight point at the tip of the blade, with two sekar kacang and two pudhak sategal at the top-base of the blade...)

So, if there is a "carita keprabon" dhapur but with two sekar kacang, the logical name of the blade, of course "carita keprabon tinanding". But you will not find that in the keris Lexicon, for sure...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 4th April 2010, 12:40 AM

Thanks Pak Gonjo. Yes, that association with wayang does make sense. More sense than reading it as Kawi.

Apart from which, now you remind me, I do recall some people do use karno tandhing rather than karno tinandhing.

But we still have the problem of sense.

If we consider the word "tandhing", we find that it can be read in several different ways.

It can have the sense of to match something or someone against something or someone else.

Or it can have the sense of an equal match.

It can also have the sense of a duel

The act in the Baratayudo is named in the active voice, so, taking into account the equal attributes of Basukarno and Arjuno this act title can be read as "Karno is evenly matched".

However, the act tells of a duel, so although Karno is evenly matched, he is evenly matched within the context of a contest against Arjuno.

Bearing this application of the words in mind, I rather doubt that we can draw a direct line from the name of an act in the Bratayudo and assume that the name of the keris dhapur "karno tinandhing" (or tandhing) is a direct lift from the wayang to a keris name.

However, this is not to say that there is no connection.

In the keris form karno tinandhing, or karno tandhing, we have a form in which the characteristics of the ricikan are repeated on opposing sides of the blade :- they are equally matched.

Such a dhapur could simply be named "dhapur tandhing".

But it is not, it is named "dhapur karno tandhing".

The word "ear" has been introduced.

Why?

I would suggest that the kembang kacang that are placed on each side of the blade give the impression of ears, so we have "karno tandhing" :- "equally matched ears".

This then becomes a play on words that links us back to the wayang.

ganjawulung · 4th April 2010, 04:28 AM

The main problem of me is "expressing idea with the right term in English". I apologize Alan, if I can not express correctly my idea in English. I hope it could be understood...

Karna Tinanding (with a dot mark under the 'd' consonant, so you may spell it as "dh") is not the only one keris dhapur's name that one can associate it with the wayang world. Name of "Pandawa" too.

Zoetmulder (and O Robson) in his Jawa Kuna lexicon, also mention that Pandawa (with capital character P) could mean "sons of Pandu" or "partisan of Pandawa". Then, what does Pandu mean? Of course, it came from the wayang world. Pandu was the great king of Astina -- before this kingdom was splitting to two kingdoms of Astina (kingdom of the left) and Amarta (kingdom of the right, where the sons of Pandu were).

So, if we mention keris dhapur with attribute of Pandawa, then we can directly understand that there is a connotation of "five" behind the attribute of Pandawa. As you know, there are 5 Pandu's son -- Puntadewa (or Samiaji), Bima (or Werkudara, Bratasena), Arjuna and the twin brother of Nakula, Sadewa (or Pinten and Tangsen). You may directly be sure, that keris bears name of Pandawa -- has "five" substance in it. Pandawa kerises, have all five luks. You may mention all Pandawa dhapurs as Pandawa Lare, Pandawa Cinarita, Pandawa Ulap, Pandawa Wilut, or Cundrik Pandawa (cundrik which has five luks)... and so on.

And so, the name of dhapur "Pulanggeni" -- the name of Arjuna's keris that often associated with "tuah" of "having many wives" as did Arjuna, who in the wayang world was told by the "dalang" (the puppeters of wayang shadow play) as a ksatria (noble man) which has "41 wives"...

The tradition of javanese people (also old tradition of Sunda in West Java and Bali too), could not be separated from the wayang world. It is not uncommon, that javanese people try to personify themselves in the wayang figures. Or personify someone they want to criticize in the political world, in a "wayang way". This tradition is still continuing, in Java. Some "dalang" of wayang shadow, they choose to criticize the political situation via their wayang play... And people could associate with the political situation.

On Karna Tinanding. It could have sense of "duel of the two brother of the same mother", whatever the result, whether Karna won or lost. Without the help of Kresna (incarnation of Wisnu), Arjuna could not win the duel against his elder brother... It could be possible, that this keris dapur was created during a similar situation of the past -- when there was a duel of two brother of the same mother. Civil war between two brother...

GANJAWULUNG

2nd April 2010, 12:22 PM	#1
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	keris for sharing and comment keris from solo whit karna tinandung regards semar Attached Images

3rd April 2010, 06:18 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	LUK 9 OR 11? Just my humble opinion, Semar, your keris could be a 11 luks keris of carita keprabon (with sekar kacang, one jenggot and two lambe gajah) but "tinanding" (two sekar kacang), and not 9 luks. You may look at the tip of the blade -- it looks like too long, enough for one more short luk. (Please I apologize, if I'm mistaken...) You may compare with my 11 luks (picture below) with two sekar kacangs too.. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

3rd April 2010, 07:44 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	This is an interesting post Pak Ganja. Tell me, what do you understand from the name "karno tinandhing" ? Karno is "ear", but what about tinandhing? I don't understand the word, I have just asked four native speakers of Javanese, one from Solo, three from East Jawa, and none of them can give any sense to the word. I've even had a look at several dictionaries. I cannot find it at all. We 've got "nandhing", which I think is probably low dialect for "compare" but "ti" is not a regularised prefix, and "compare" doesn't make sense --- I think. So tell me, what do you think "karno tinandhing" means? Looking at this keris of Semar's, there are a couple of things that strike my eye:- the distance from final luk to point, the apparent nature of the pamor, the odd little projections above the kembang kacangs, the method of workmanship. Then there is the mendak and the wrongko. Where do you think this keris might be from? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd April 2010 at 09:01 AM.

4th April 2010, 04:28 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Wayang Names The main problem of me is "expressing idea with the right term in English". I apologize Alan, if I can not express correctly my idea in English. I hope it could be understood... Karna Tinanding (with a dot mark under the 'd' consonant, so you may spell it as "dh") is not the only one keris dhapur's name that one can associate it with the wayang world. Name of "Pandawa" too. Zoetmulder (and O Robson) in his Jawa Kuna lexicon, also mention that Pandawa (with capital character P) could mean "sons of Pandu" or "partisan of Pandawa". Then, what does Pandu mean? Of course, it came from the wayang world. Pandu was the great king of Astina -- before this kingdom was splitting to two kingdoms of Astina (kingdom of the left) and Amarta (kingdom of the right, where the sons of Pandu were). So, if we mention keris dhapur with attribute of Pandawa, then we can directly understand that there is a connotation of "five" behind the attribute of Pandawa. As you know, there are 5 Pandu's son -- Puntadewa (or Samiaji), Bima (or Werkudara, Bratasena), Arjuna and the twin brother of Nakula, Sadewa (or Pinten and Tangsen). You may directly be sure, that keris bears name of Pandawa -- has "five" substance in it. Pandawa kerises, have all five luks. You may mention all Pandawa dhapurs as Pandawa Lare, Pandawa Cinarita, Pandawa Ulap, Pandawa Wilut, or Cundrik Pandawa (cundrik which has five luks)... and so on. And so, the name of dhapur "Pulanggeni" -- the name of Arjuna's keris that often associated with "tuah" of "having many wives" as did Arjuna, who in the wayang world was told by the "dalang" (the puppeters of wayang shadow play) as a ksatria (noble man) which has "41 wives"... The tradition of javanese people (also old tradition of Sunda in West Java and Bali too), could not be separated from the wayang world. It is not uncommon, that javanese people try to personify themselves in the wayang figures. Or personify someone they want to criticize in the political world, in a "wayang way". This tradition is still continuing, in Java. Some "dalang" of wayang shadow, they choose to criticize the political situation via their wayang play... And people could associate with the political situation. On Karna Tinanding. It could have sense of "duel of the two brother of the same mother", whatever the result, whether Karna won or lost. Without the help of Kresna (incarnation of Wisnu), Arjuna could not win the duel against his elder brother... It could be possible, that this keris dapur was created during a similar situation of the past -- when there was a duel of two brother of the same mother. Civil war between two brother... GANJAWULUNG

3rd April 2010, 09:05 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	It has just struck me that we're actually looking at Kawi here. Is "tinandhing" "ti - nan - dhing" :- "to work extremely hard until finished " ? If so, and we add "ear", what is the sense of this? Then consider the tuah.

4th April 2010, 12:40 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks Pak Gonjo. Yes, that association with wayang does make sense. More sense than reading it as Kawi. Apart from which, now you remind me, I do recall some people do use karno tandhing rather than karno tinandhing. But we still have the problem of sense. If we consider the word "tandhing", we find that it can be read in several different ways. It can have the sense of to match something or someone against something or someone else. Or it can have the sense of an equal match. It can also have the sense of a duel The act in the Baratayudo is named in the active voice, so, taking into account the equal attributes of Basukarno and Arjuno this act title can be read as "Karno is evenly matched". However, the act tells of a duel, so although Karno is evenly matched, he is evenly matched within the context of a contest against Arjuno. Bearing this application of the words in mind, I rather doubt that we can draw a direct line from the name of an act in the Bratayudo and assume that the name of the keris dhapur "karno tinandhing" (or tandhing) is a direct lift from the wayang to a keris name. However, this is not to say that there is no connection. In the keris form karno tinandhing, or karno tandhing, we have a form in which the characteristics of the ricikan are repeated on opposing sides of the blade :- they are equally matched. Such a dhapur could simply be named "dhapur tandhing". But it is not, it is named "dhapur karno tandhing". The word "ear" has been introduced. Why? I would suggest that the kembang kacang that are placed on each side of the blade give the impression of ears, so we have "karno tandhing" :- "equally matched ears". This then becomes a play on words that links us back to the wayang.