Afghan belt

ward · 25th October 2007, 11:44 PM

I am looking for information on what the pouch in the 4th and 5th pictures originally contained. Afghan belt with niello and punched decoration on silver age 1900-1929 modeled on english cartridge belt for city use.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2007, 06:03 AM

Hello Ward,
This remarkable militaria item of course reflects the British influence on Afghan military fashion that transpired after the 1880's. I am unclear on what the differences between field and city use would be with these belts, and am unfamiliar with what paraphenalia would be required with the firearms in use. It does seem however that a number of British native cavalry regiments had among accoutrements in thier uniform belts a silvered whistle (often the brand name 'thunderer') which had a slotted receiver pouch on the belt.
These were usually on a lanyard but still were held in the pouch.

Beautiful belt!!!

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 29th October 2007, 12:32 PM

victorian (& modern) uniforms with whistle seem to generally have the lanyard chain attached to a boss on the cross belt and the whistle holder is on the lower part of the cross belt rather than the waist belt. the pattern seems pretty much the same between regiments and over the last century anyway.

modern:

more ethnic victorian one:

another:

closeup of boss, chain, whistle and holder.

thunderer whistle:

these are the whistles we normally see nowadays, usually in plastic.
these have replaced the older style tubular whistles of yore.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2007, 06:07 PM

Hi Kronckew,
Thank you for responding!
Its been some time since I have dealt with these militaria items, and now that you mention it, I think you are right on the position of the whistle pouch and lanyard mount. I had a waist belt/cross belt from 1st Bengal Lancers (Skinners Horse) of about turn of the century and was trying to recall the whistle location.
I am still wondering if whistle of some kind might have been positioned in the pouch. What do you think might have gone in it ?

The very attractive accoutrements of these Victorian cavalry regiments were magnificent, and this belt is a great example. It has come to my attention that the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif is included in the motif on the buckle as well.

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 29th October 2007, 08:25 PM

hi jim,

it looks like whatever went in there would have had a protruding stud to go thru the flap, similar to that in the cartridge case, are they internally stiffened with a metal insert of some sort under the leather?

can't think of anything that would fit. the slot and the bottom of the thing are confusing me, they are there for something. will probably kick myself when we figure it out or someone comes in with an 'oh, yes that's for .....'

spiral · 29th October 2007, 10:09 PM

To my eye it looks like 2 identical pouches on each end of belt. I dont think one ever carries two whistles.

The split & sprung look I agree is unusual. Cant fathom what it would be for myself.

Appears to be for tubular containers with possible front projection lower down? carried 2 at a time....

Internal dimesions of the "holsters" would help add to the equation perhaps?

Spiral

ward · 29th October 2007, 11:14 PM

There are 2 of these cases yes identical each about the size of a lipstick case. No metal stiffening just 2 layers of leather as in the rest of the belt.I will get some measurement's in a bit

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2007, 06:09 AM

Hi Kronckew and Spiral,
Thanks guys for joining me on this puzzle! I always love a good mystery, but honestly dont know enough about firearms paraphenalia of the period to know what kind of items might have been held in these pouches.

Ward, looking forward to the measurements. It is interesting that whatever was held in these duplicate pouches came obviously in two.

All best regards,
Jim

25th October 2007, 11:44 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Afghan belt I am looking for information on what the pouch in the 4th and 5th pictures originally contained. Afghan belt with niello and punched decoration on silver age 1900-1929 modeled on english cartridge belt for city use. Attached Images

29th October 2007, 12:32 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	victorian (& modern) uniforms with whistle seem to generally have the lanyard chain attached to a boss on the cross belt and the whistle holder is on the lower part of the cross belt rather than the waist belt. the pattern seems pretty much the same between regiments and over the last century anyway. modern: more ethnic victorian one: another: closeup of boss, chain, whistle and holder. thunderer whistle: these are the whistles we normally see nowadays, usually in plastic. these have replaced the older style tubular whistles of yore. Last edited by kronckew; 29th October 2007 at 01:11 PM.

29th October 2007, 06:03 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hello Ward, This remarkable militaria item of course reflects the British influence on Afghan military fashion that transpired after the 1880's. I am unclear on what the differences between field and city use would be with these belts, and am unfamiliar with what paraphenalia would be required with the firearms in use. It does seem however that a number of British native cavalry regiments had among accoutrements in thier uniform belts a silvered whistle (often the brand name 'thunderer') which had a slotted receiver pouch on the belt. These were usually on a lanyard but still were held in the pouch. Beautiful belt!!! All best regards, Jim

29th October 2007, 06:07 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Kronckew, Thank you for responding! Its been some time since I have dealt with these militaria items, and now that you mention it, I think you are right on the position of the whistle pouch and lanyard mount. I had a waist belt/cross belt from 1st Bengal Lancers (Skinners Horse) of about turn of the century and was trying to recall the whistle location. I am still wondering if whistle of some kind might have been positioned in the pouch. What do you think might have gone in it ? The very attractive accoutrements of these Victorian cavalry regiments were magnificent, and this belt is a great example. It has come to my attention that the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif is included in the motif on the buckle as well. All best regards, Jim

29th October 2007, 08:25 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	hi jim, it looks like whatever went in there would have had a protruding stud to go thru the flap, similar to that in the cartridge case, are they internally stiffened with a metal insert of some sort under the leather? can't think of anything that would fit. the slot and the bottom of the thing are confusing me, they are there for something. will probably kick myself when we figure it out or someone comes in with an 'oh, yes that's for .....'

29th October 2007, 10:09 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	To my eye it looks like 2 identical pouches on each end of belt. I dont think one ever carries two whistles. The split & sprung look I agree is unusual. Cant fathom what it would be for myself. Appears to be for tubular containers with possible front projection lower down? carried 2 at a time.... Internal dimesions of the "holsters" would help add to the equation perhaps? Spiral

29th October 2007, 11:14 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	There are 2 of these cases yes identical each about the size of a lipstick case. No metal stiffening just 2 layers of leather as in the rest of the belt.I will get some measurement's in a bit

30th October 2007, 06:09 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Kronckew and Spiral, Thanks guys for joining me on this puzzle! I always love a good mystery, but honestly dont know enough about firearms paraphenalia of the period to know what kind of items might have been held in these pouches. Ward, looking forward to the measurements. It is interesting that whatever was held in these duplicate pouches came obviously in two. All best regards, Jim