7th January 2023, 08:54 PM | #1 |
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Folding bayonet
I didn't want to clutter up Fernando's thread on Navalhas. So started another thread for this. Can anyone tell the country of origin for this folding knife? Is it a Navaja, Navalhas, or perhaps from Italy? It has the ring for assistance in releasing the lock, but not ratchet. Oddly, it seems to be made or modified to fit to a hunting rifle as a bayonet.
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8th January 2023, 10:59 AM | #2 |
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What a rather interesting piece, Shawn; one i would like to own for sure .
Could it be that this is not a 'one of many' unit but the 'one and only' creation of some ingenious author for personal use ? |
8th January 2023, 04:59 PM | #3 |
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The knife appears to have been made with the muzzle ring and plug.
You cannot fire the firearm with it attached unless you want a burst barrel. I suppose many years ago you did not wish to expend more ammunition than necessary on your downed prey so just give him a good jab to finish him off.. |
8th January 2023, 05:21 PM | #4 |
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I am not sure it works that way; if the ring is to encircle the muzzle, there is no way that cylindrical device may work as a plug. Am i correct ? .
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8th January 2023, 06:10 PM | #5 |
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8th January 2023, 07:35 PM | #6 |
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My apologies for adding here a reference pertinent to this query, but unfortunately exceeding discussion boundaries. In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets" (Frederick H. Stephens, 1971) which illustrates a folding bayonet from the M1938 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (222,223).
This is a most interesting innovation, and I wonder if anything similar was ever contrived in the 19th century. It was realized by the mid 18th century that the bayonet was ultimately most effective in large scale combat attacks, becoming one of the key weapons of infantry. Through the 19th century, due to this, there was constantly various attention to altering features and character of the bayonet to improve them for multipurpose use and attachment etc. |
8th January 2023, 07:44 PM | #7 |
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Of i may Jim, i fail to see the connection in form between Nazi military pattern bayonets and this (surely) private originality.
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8th January 2023, 08:19 PM | #8 |
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folding bayonet
I'm sure it is a one off hunting piece. Certainly not military. I was hoping the characteristics of the folding knife might point to the country of origin.
The plug might be designed to fit into the ramrod channel, helping to stablize the muzzle end. The pommel has a catch for a lug to fasten the bayonet. |
9th January 2023, 09:20 AM | #9 |
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Exactly what i was coming at... to be honest. For the folding catch, it could be that it doesn't define the origin of the knife but that the inventor was inspired by seeing these systems out there. Note that he only went for a locking round pin; no ratchets nor single grooves.
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9th January 2023, 03:18 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
Mea Culpa. While this example in discussion MAY be a private fabrication, it may as well be a prototype for possible production. The objective was to show that this feature DID exist in pattern production, again though in 'modern' period. |
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9th January 2023, 04:06 PM | #11 |
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Duly noted, Jim. Yet my concern was not the modern period of the examples you posted per se, but the comparison between weapons of factory production for military purposes and the knife in discussion, manifestly a personal item with intense manual intervention. On the other hand, apart from in both cases the blades being foldable, not an uncommon particular, no further features are alike... i would say.
- Last edited by fernando; 9th January 2023 at 04:27 PM. |
9th January 2023, 06:27 PM | #12 | |
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I thought these entries from the reference by Stephens, and the example from one of the most reliable authorities on bayonets , the late Roger Evans, would be helpful.....particularly as it supported Bayowolf's suggestion of Italy in the OP. Perhaps published references are not relevant if the item posted is deemed 'privately' made, thus purely an anomaly with no influencing forms. |
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9th January 2023, 07:51 PM | #13 |
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On a second thought, you are right, Jim. Just forget my rambles.
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9th January 2023, 10:29 PM | #14 |
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folding bayonet
My mention of Italy was not because Italy made some folding bayonets many years later. Several countries experimented with folding bayonets. But the similarity to some Italian folding knives. This bayonet has much more in common with the various cultural folding knives than any military bayonet.
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9th January 2023, 10:40 PM | #15 |
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11th January 2023, 01:14 PM | #16 |
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It is an interesting and apparently well item from the photographs. That said I am curious about a few things concerning this piece.
1)I find the round pin odd. Why not a deep, square cut notch like on many navajas? To me they seem stronger than the narrower round shape. Is the round pin an integral piece forged and shaped with the blade and then rounded or, I believe, more likely a pin that was soldered into a drilled hole? 2) No one has commented that this bayonet mounts with the axis of the blade 90° different than most modern bayonets. attaching to the barrel through a side ring not the proximal quillon. 3) Concerning the other examples shown what is the advantage of a folding bayonet for a military weapon? To my understanding this style of knife originated as a way to skirt regulations on the possession and carry of weapons. A military naturally isn't confined by there. Yes, it would take up less space on the belt, but the tradeoff is a slower drawing weapon that has a natural tendency to fold on the hand using it, or at the end of the barrel just when you really do not have time to fiddle with a gunked up locking mechanism. These are long blades that theoretically have large amounts of leverage placed on them (I have seen a lock fail on a friend's knife with only a 3-4" blade, and it wasn't pretty). Even for a civilian weapon a folding mechanism seems dodgy for dispatching large game such as boar if you have a better legal option. |
11th January 2023, 01:41 PM | #17 |
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Interestingly enough, for what it is worth, I found a stag handled navaja on Wikipedia's English site under the entry "Navaja" that is attributed to 1790 and uses a round pin as well.
Last edited by Interested Party; 11th January 2023 at 03:43 PM. |
11th January 2023, 05:53 PM | #18 | |
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" Why one made it at all attachable instead of keeping it fixed as with the cavalry carbines is not entirely clear - probably to provide for the case that a soldier would need his bayonet for the (much more common) use of opening tin cans, slaughtering the requisitioned chicken or rabbits, or even for the (rarer) use as a fighting knife in close combat ". |
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12th January 2023, 03:56 PM | #19 | |
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Both fittings are quite common. Generally, bayonets fit to the side until the era of breech loading and then began to shift to underneath. If you were meaning the position of the blade to the barrel being horizontal or vertical? Both are common until the modern era. . Last edited by fernando; 12th January 2023 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Quote bracket missing |
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