Folding bayonet

[Bayowolf]

I didn't want to clutter up Fernando's thread on Navalhas. So started another thread for this. Can anyone tell the country of origin for this folding knife? Is it a Navaja, Navalhas, or perhaps from Italy? It has the ring for assistance in releasing the lock, but not ratchet. Oddly, it seems to be made or modified to fit to a hunting rifle as a bayonet.

[fernando]

What a rather interesting piece, Shawn; one i would like to own for sure .
Could it be that this is not a 'one of many' unit but the 'one and only' creation of some ingenious author for personal use ?

[Will M]

The knife appears to have been made with the muzzle ring and plug.
You cannot fire the firearm with it attached unless you want a burst barrel.
I suppose many years ago you did not wish to expend more ammunition than necessary on your downed prey so just give him a good jab to finish him off..

[fernando]

I am not sure it works that way; if the ring is to encircle the muzzle, there is no way that cylindrical device may work as a plug. Am i correct ? .

[Will M]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am not sure it works that way; if the ring is to encircle the muzzle, there is no way that cylindrical device may work as a plug. Am i correct ? .

Yes I'm wrong on that, I was thinking of a particular rifle in the back of my mind.

[Jim McDougall]

My apologies for adding here a reference pertinent to this query, but unfortunately exceeding discussion boundaries. In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets" (Frederick H. Stephens, 1971) which illustrates a folding bayonet from the M1938 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (222,223).

This is a most interesting innovation, and I wonder if anything similar was ever contrived in the 19th century. It was realized by the mid 18th century that the bayonet was ultimately most effective in large scale combat attacks, becoming one of the key weapons of infantry. Through the 19th century, due to this, there was constantly various attention to altering features and character of the bayonet to improve them for multipurpose use and attachment etc.

[fernando]

Of i may Jim, i fail to see the connection in form between Nazi military pattern bayonets and this (surely) private originality.

[Bayowolf]

I'm sure it is a one off hunting piece. Certainly not military. I was hoping the characteristics of the folding knife might point to the country of origin.

The plug might be designed to fit into the ramrod channel, helping to stablize the muzzle end. The pommel has a catch for a lug to fasten the bayonet.

[fernando]

Exactly what i was coming at... to be honest. For the folding catch, it could be that it doesn't define the origin of the knife but that the inventor was inspired by seeing these systems out there. Note that he only went for a locking round pin; no ratchets nor single grooves.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Of i may Jim, i fail to see the connection in form between Nazi military pattern bayonets and this (surely) private originality.

Fernando, if you note the text in my post you might notice that I have specified images 222,223 as examples of the ITALIAN folding bayonet which pertain to the discussion here. I imaged both pages of the book to include the necessary captioned text, but did not redact the unfortunately placed image of the 'other' bayonet as it seemed obvious what detail was intended.
Mea Culpa.
While this example in discussion MAY be a private fabrication, it may as well be a prototype for possible production. The objective was to show that this feature DID exist in pattern production, again though in 'modern' period.

[fernando]

Duly noted, Jim. Yet my concern was not the modern period of the examples you posted per se, but the comparison between weapons of factory production for military purposes and the knife in discussion, manifestly a personal item with intense manual intervention. On the other hand, apart from in both cases the blades being foldable, not an uncommon particular, no further features are alike... i would say.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Duly noted, Jim. Yet my concern was not the modern period of the examples you posted per se, but the comparison between weapons of factory production for military purposes and the knife in discussion, manifestly a personal item with intense manual intervention. On the other hand, apart from in both cases the blades being foldable, not an uncommon particular, no further features are alike... i would say.


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So basically as this appears to be privately made, as there are no markings, it cannot be associated with any production forms of folding bayonet used as a prototype? Therefore the elimination of any production form that has any military basis is invalid to determine possible country or period ?

I thought these entries from the reference by Stephens, and the example from one of the most reliable authorities on bayonets , the late Roger Evans, would be helpful.....particularly as it supported Bayowolf's suggestion of Italy in the OP. Perhaps published references are not relevant if the item posted is deemed 'privately' made, thus purely an anomaly with no influencing forms.

[fernando]

On a second thought, you are right, Jim. Just forget my rambles.

[Bayowolf]

My mention of Italy was not because Italy made some folding bayonets many years later. Several countries experimented with folding bayonets. But the similarity to some Italian folding knives. This bayonet has much more in common with the various cultural folding knives than any military bayonet.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

On a second thought, you are right, Jim. Just forget my rambles.

Fernando, you and I are about the same age, and I think the rambling is with us both but thank you. Just want to be on the same page

[Interested Party]

It is an interesting and apparently well item from the photographs. That said I am curious about a few things concerning this piece.

1)I find the round pin odd. Why not a deep, square cut notch like on many navajas? To me they seem stronger than the narrower round shape. Is the round pin an integral piece forged and shaped with the blade and then rounded or, I believe, more likely a pin that was soldered into a drilled hole?

2) No one has commented that this bayonet mounts with the axis of the blade 90° different than most modern bayonets. attaching to the barrel through a side ring not the proximal quillon.

3) Concerning the other examples shown what is the advantage of a folding bayonet for a military weapon? To my understanding this style of knife originated as a way to skirt regulations on the possession and carry of weapons. A military naturally isn't confined by there. Yes, it would take up less space on the belt, but the tradeoff is a slower drawing weapon that has a natural tendency to fold on the hand using it, or at the end of the barrel just when you really do not have time to fiddle with a gunked up locking mechanism. These are long blades that theoretically have large amounts of leverage placed on them (I have seen a lock fail on a friend's knife with only a 3-4" blade, and it wasn't pretty). Even for a civilian weapon a folding mechanism seems dodgy for dispatching large game such as boar if you have a better legal option.

[Interested Party]

Interestingly enough, for what it is worth, I found a stag handled navaja on Wikipedia's English site under the entry "Navaja" that is attributed to 1790 and uses a round pin as well.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... Concerning the other examples shown what is the advantage of a folding bayonet for a military weapon?.

Quoting the author of the abovementioned work on the Carcano bayonets, Frederick H. Stephens himself:

" Why one made it at all attachable instead of keeping it fixed as with the cavalry carbines is not entirely clear - probably to provide for the case that a soldier would need his bayonet for the (much more common) use of opening tin cans, slaughtering the requisitioned chicken or rabbits, or even for the (rarer) use as a fighting knife in close combat ".

[Bayowolf]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

It is an interesting and apparently well item from the photographs. That said I am curious about a few things concerning this piece.

2) No one has commented that this bayonet mounts with the axis of the blade 90° different than most modern bayonets. attaching to the barrel through a side ring not the proximal quillon...

The way fits on the firearm, to the right of the barrel or underneath would depend on where the bayonet lug for the pommel was mounted. It could fit either underneath or to the right. However, I believe the round stud on the muzzle ring is designed to go into the ramrod channel. If so, that would make it fit underneath the barrel.

Both fittings are quite common. Generally, bayonets fit to the side until the era of breech loading and then began to shift to underneath.

If you were meaning the position of the blade to the barrel being horizontal or vertical? Both are common until the modern era.


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