Two rather nice tulwars

Andy Davis · 4th November 2005, 09:00 PM

Hello all
Have seen similar in books not any in the flesh....metal so to say! Had to encourage a friend to sell them to me but thats what you have to do.
Blades arent much of a clue, as both seem replacements. The curved blade seems a modern piece, being far too heavy, though the straight one seems to be a European blade. Very light, good flexibility and quality.
Any ideas on the hilts though? Period and region of India. Do these still classify as Hindu basket hilts? as they dont have very much of a basket!
Cheers, as always
Andy

Andy Davis · 6th November 2005, 09:28 PM

I am surprised. Where have you gone Brian, I thought these were possibly your cup of tea.
Andy

B.I · 8th November 2005, 07:00 PM

hi andy,
sorry to ignore you, but have been away.
yes, they are nice and yes, they are my cup of tea!
it is a shame that the blades have been replaced. the straight blade does seem ill-fitted. the sabre seems to have been 'glued' in by indian methods. what makes you say it is a replacement. if there is another reason other than it being too heavy, then i defer to your assessment as you can see past the photos. i have blades that are immensely heavy and so this shouldnt alone lead to suspicion.
the hilts are nice and early. both can be classified as 'maharatha' and southern indian, as the chunky basket hilt is remeniscent of their style.
btw, this is exactly what a hindu basket hilt is supposed to look like and dont let the term 'basket' make you think of the european equivellant.
the maharathan reign can be rounded off to late 17th-early 18thC, but this is only their dominance over tanjore. they were around before this period, although this is a good scope of years to use when describing their swords.
however, whilst almost 'typical' examples, both your pieces hold very unusual features that lend themselves to looking a little further.
the hilt of the sabre is a very nice example. it seems to have been silvered (and possible gilt which wouldnt have been unusual), although this is much worn. the beading and piercing around the basket is very nice, as is the chisselled foliage. again, all of this is pretty typical. the pommel, however, is a little unusual and a wonderful feature to find. this segmented finial is remeniscent of an earlier period and is found in much nayak work (the earlier hindu dynasty of the same area). not only is it a nayak feature, it is an early nayak style. attached is a pommel from a 16thC hilt which shows a very similar finial. you hilt is not nayak, but the influence is definately apparant. for this reason, i would err towards a slightly earlier period and guess it to be mid 17thC.
the straight blade has another unusual feature on the hilt, in the 'lobed' quillions. i find these wonderful and almost sculptural in form. again, this reminds me of an earlier period and almost similar to the zoomorphic hilts found in the 16thC vijanagara. the tulwar is a development of many different styles of sword and the earlier 'transitional' hilts had a thicker form with quite substantial quillions (not dissimilar in form to these). again, the hilt is still maharatha, but i feel it dates to the earlier period (mid-late17thC).

i'm afraid all of this can only be speculation and opinion, but there are enough hilts in existance to attempt to classify them into at least region and century.
well done on your persuasive talents and i look forward to seeing them in the 'flesh' at some point in the future.

Andy Davis · 9th November 2005, 09:48 AM

Cheers
I knew you would have something to say!
Though I might be in the right area with you, as the cut through decoration, especially on the curved one, reminded me a little of that arm guard you showed me.
The blade on that does seem certainly wrong. Doesnt have any quality to it, very thick right up to the edge, heavy and there is no pitting under the langlets. So certainly reasonably newly done and there is signs that the resin/pitch is fairly fresh...well at least not original. Blade actually reminds me of one of the cheap/nasty brass handled things with the chrom taken off.
Ah yes...my persuasive talents have worked well. I also now have a shamshir off him as well. Photos to follow and the sale of the other item went very well yesterday

4th November 2005, 09:00 PM	#1
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Two rather nice tulwars Hello all Have seen similar in books not any in the flesh....metal so to say! Had to encourage a friend to sell them to me but thats what you have to do. Blades arent much of a clue, as both seem replacements. The curved blade seems a modern piece, being far too heavy, though the straight one seems to be a European blade. Very light, good flexibility and quality. Any ideas on the hilts though? Period and region of India. Do these still classify as Hindu basket hilts? as they dont have very much of a basket! Cheers, as always Andy Attached Images

6th November 2005, 09:28 PM	#2
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	No opinions? I am surprised. Where have you gone Brian, I thought these were possibly your cup of tea. Andy

8th November 2005, 07:00 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi andy, sorry to ignore you, but have been away. yes, they are nice and yes, they are my cup of tea! it is a shame that the blades have been replaced. the straight blade does seem ill-fitted. the sabre seems to have been 'glued' in by indian methods. what makes you say it is a replacement. if there is another reason other than it being too heavy, then i defer to your assessment as you can see past the photos. i have blades that are immensely heavy and so this shouldnt alone lead to suspicion. the hilts are nice and early. both can be classified as 'maharatha' and southern indian, as the chunky basket hilt is remeniscent of their style. btw, this is exactly what a hindu basket hilt is supposed to look like and dont let the term 'basket' make you think of the european equivellant. the maharathan reign can be rounded off to late 17th-early 18thC, but this is only their dominance over tanjore. they were around before this period, although this is a good scope of years to use when describing their swords. however, whilst almost 'typical' examples, both your pieces hold very unusual features that lend themselves to looking a little further. the hilt of the sabre is a very nice example. it seems to have been silvered (and possible gilt which wouldnt have been unusual), although this is much worn. the beading and piercing around the basket is very nice, as is the chisselled foliage. again, all of this is pretty typical. the pommel, however, is a little unusual and a wonderful feature to find. this segmented finial is remeniscent of an earlier period and is found in much nayak work (the earlier hindu dynasty of the same area). not only is it a nayak feature, it is an early nayak style. attached is a pommel from a 16thC hilt which shows a very similar finial. you hilt is not nayak, but the influence is definately apparant. for this reason, i would err towards a slightly earlier period and guess it to be mid 17thC. the straight blade has another unusual feature on the hilt, in the 'lobed' quillions. i find these wonderful and almost sculptural in form. again, this reminds me of an earlier period and almost similar to the zoomorphic hilts found in the 16thC vijanagara. the tulwar is a development of many different styles of sword and the earlier 'transitional' hilts had a thicker form with quite substantial quillions (not dissimilar in form to these). again, the hilt is still maharatha, but i feel it dates to the earlier period (mid-late17thC). i'm afraid all of this can only be speculation and opinion, but there are enough hilts in existance to attempt to classify them into at least region and century. well done on your persuasive talents and i look forward to seeing them in the 'flesh' at some point in the future. Attached Images

9th November 2005, 09:48 AM	#4
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	All good news Cheers I knew you would have something to say! Though I might be in the right area with you, as the cut through decoration, especially on the curved one, reminded me a little of that arm guard you showed me. The blade on that does seem certainly wrong. Doesnt have any quality to it, very thick right up to the edge, heavy and there is no pitting under the langlets. So certainly reasonably newly done and there is signs that the resin/pitch is fairly fresh...well at least not original. Blade actually reminds me of one of the cheap/nasty brass handled things with the chrom taken off. Ah yes...my persuasive talents have worked well. I also now have a shamshir off him as well. Photos to follow and the sale of the other item went very well yesterday