Sad story: 'Ottoman / Kurdish Jambiya' Did you buy it?

[Atlantia]

Recently on another forum, an interesting story was told:
"I used to work with a Marine for whom I did a pretty significant favor. In return he presented me with this dagger which he found laying amidst rubble-strewn streets during the invasion of Fallujah. He also gave me the accompanying paperwork certifying the blade as a legitimate "war trophy." We did some research and found - through Google Images - the same knife (in better condition) advertised as a jambiya. Recently my curiosity has been renewed however, I'm no longer able to find the site! Through my continued efforts I stumbled upon your forum and have been thoroughly impressed with your collective expertise. I thought I'd put it to the test and hopefully gain some insight on the origins of the relic sitting in my closet, wrapped in a pillow case!" James D.

In a different thread he added the statement:
"I have no intention of trading or selling the jambiya"

Firstly, here is the Dagger in question (pictures available in at least two other public places on the net):

[Atlantia]

I personally thought that James account of paperwork legitimising the Daggers origins under those circumstances left several very important questions unanswered.
He was asked by myself and others if he would share a copy of the supporting documentation, but failed to do so (there were two threads, so he may not have seen the requests).

The dagger has now been sold on ebay. 'Ottoman / Kurdish Jambiya'.
I can provide a link if that is OK with the mod team?

The eBay description was quite short and did not mention how the dagger was acquired:
"Ottoman / Kurdish jambiya; Hijri date 1227 translates to 1812; 14 3/4" blade + 6 5/8" hilt;
paperwork included."

I would like to ask the new buyer if they read this (and I realise it might be somewhat of a shock) if they would share the paperwork with us to further our understanding.

I hope this thread is OK with the mod team and doesn't break any rules. If it does I will of course be happy to edit/delete as needed. I just thought that this story does throw up some questions that are of 'public interest' to us all as collectors.

[Gustav]

A sad story indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falluja...idden_Massacre

[A.alnakkas]

Hello Gene,

Thanks for starting this topic. I hope this wont be closed, it will be a very big disappointment if it does.

This is an item that was taken off the rubble of a home in Fallujah. Antique items are not part of "legal" items to be taken as war trophies, as confirmed by David Lewis Smith from SWF. This Item has been taken from the Iraqi people Illegally in accordance with every law.

I hope who ever bought this dagger can contact us here.

Regards,

Abdullatif

[Atlantia]

My brother-in-law is military and was out there at that time. I asked him if he knew what the UK military view would be, taking the circumstances at face value as told by James D.

He told me that he was sure that a UK soldier wouldn't be allowed to keep the dagger. That if they did disclose it to their superiors it would be confiscated, and if they tried to smuggle it out and were caught, they'd be in serious trouble.

I find it difficult to imagine that the US regulations would be much different?

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

My brother-in-law is military and was out there at that time. I asked him if he knew what the UK military view would be, taking the circumstances at face value as told by James D.

He told me that he was sure that a UK soldier wouldn't be allowed to keep the dagger. That if they did disclose it to their superiors it would be confiscated, and if they tried to smuggle it out and were caught, they'd be in serious trouble.

I find it difficult to imagine that the US regulations would be much different?

According to David, who is a military person. He said that American military allow trophy taking to items of no historic value or any value to the Iraqi/afghan people. So if he is right, then this is even illegal to the american army.

Tommorow am visiting Kuwait museum and try to acquire the number of the Iraqi museum and see how can they assist.

Any Americans here are willing to help by giving details of law regarding war trophies??

Regards,

Abdullatif

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello Gene,

Thanks for starting this topic. I hope this wont be closed, it will be a very big disappointment if it does.

This is an item that was taken off the rubble of a home in Fallujah. Antique items are not part of "legal" items to be taken as war trophies, as confirmed by David Lewis Smith from SWF. This Item has been taken from the Iraqi people Illegally in accordance with every law.

I hope who ever bought this dagger can contact us here.

Regards,

Abdullatif

Hi Lotfy,

Thank you.
I think only one thread is still available over at SFI, but it does include James story of the items acquisition so shows that my quoting him is verbatim:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?106190-Blade-ID-If-you-would-be-so-kind-gentlemen!&highlight=

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gustav

A sad story indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falluja...idden_Massacre

It's very worrying indeed.

I find myself thinking that even if I found this item on a street in the UK, then keeping it would be theft.
Only if I took it to the police and after a six week period it was unclaimed could I legally take ownership of it.

[A.alnakkas]

Awesome. I have taken screen prints of it. This way even if the topic is deleted, we get to have something atleast (now I need to know how to access the file which stores screenshots).

Can we contact ebay perhaps? I am not sure how that would help.. but if we show that this item is illegally taken from the Iraqi people they might help?

[kronckew]

US Armed forces are governed by the UCMJ - Uniform Code of MIlitary Justice.

From a JAG (Judge Advocate General) Text

WAR TROPHIES.
A. Captured Or Abandoned Property. UCMJ art. 103.
1. Soldiers must give notice and turn over to the proper authorities without delay
all captured or abandoned enemy property.
2. Soldiers can be punished for:
a) Failing to carry out duties described in ¶ 1 above.
b) Buying, selling, trading or in any way disposing of captured or
abandoned public or private property.
c) Engaging in looting or pillaging.

JAG Linky

Case law: (sets precidents)

...a) Wrongful taking. Requires dominion, control, and asportation. See generally
United States v. Carter, 24 M.J. 280 (C.M.A. 1987); United States v. Smith, 33 M.J. 527 (A.F.C.M.R. 1991), aff’d, 35 M.J. 138 (C.M.A. 1992); United States v. Pacheco, 56 M.J. 1 (C.A.A.F. 2001) (stealing war trophies). The taking, obtaining or withholding is wrongful if done without the knowing consent of the owner or other lawful authority. MCM, pt. IV, ¶ 46c(1)(d).

(1) United States v. Sneed, 38 C.M.R. 249 (C.M.A. 1968). Where
accused’s accomplices were government agents, larceny of government
property could not stand as no taking ever occurred, i.e., articles were
never out of government control. See United States v. Cosby, 14 M.J. 3
(C.M.A. 1982) (accused can be guilty of wrongful taking even though
property was released to him by competent authority); see also United
States v. Cassey, 34 C.M.R. 338 (C.M.A. 1964) (OSI authorized
accomplices to proceed with delivery of government property and then
apprehended accused after delivery as he attempted to leave base).

however, for specific orders relating to iraq:

...
F. War Trophies/Souvenirs. The LOW authorizes the confiscation of enemy military property. War trophies or souvenirs taken from enemy military property are legal under the LOW. War trophy personal retention
by an individual soldier is restricted under U.S. domestic law. Confiscated enemy military property is property of the United States. The property becomes a war trophy, and capable of legal retention by an individual Soldier as a souvenir, only as authorized by higher authority. Pillage, that is, the unauthorized taking of private or personal property for personal gain or use, is expressly prohibited.

1. War Trophy Policy. 10 U.S.C. § 2579 requires that all enemy material captured or found abandoned shall be turned in to “appropriate” personnel. The law, which directs the promulgation of an implementing directive
and service regulations, contemplates that members of the armed forces may request enemy items as souvenirs. The request would be reviewed by an officer who shall act on the request “consistent with military customs, traditions, and regulations.” The law authorizes the retention of captured weapons as souvenirs if rendered unserviceable and approved jointly by DoD and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF).

Implementing directives have
not been promulgated.

2. Guidance. USCENTCOM General Order Number 1 is perhaps the classic example of a war trophy order. These regulations and policies, and relevant UCMJ provisions must be made known to U.S. forces prior to combat. War trophy regulations must be emphasized early and often, for even those who are aware of the regulations may be tempted to disregard them if they see others doing so.
a. An 11 February 2004 Deputy Secretary of Defense memorandum establishes interim guidance on the collection of war souvenirs for the duration of OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM (OIF) and will remain in effect
until an updated DoD Directive is implemented. This memorandum provides the following:
(1) War souvenirs shall be permitted by this interim guidance only if they are acquired and retained in accordance with the LOW obligations of the United States. Law of war violations should be prevented and, if committed by U.S. persons, promptly reported, thoroughly investigated, and, where appropriate, remedied by corrective action.
(2) All U.S. military personnel and civilians subject to this policy, operating in the Iraqi theater of operations during OIF shall turn over to officials designated by CDRUSCENTCOM all captured, found abandoned,
or otherwise acquired material, and may not, except in accordance with this interim guidance, take from the Iraqi theater of operations as a souvenir any item captured, found abandoned, or otherwise acquired.
(3) An individual who desires to retain as a war souvenir an item acquired in the Iraqi theater of operations shall request to have the item returned to them as a war souvenir at the time it is turned over to persons
designated by CDRUSCENTCOM. Such a request shall be in writing, identify the item, and explain how it was acquired.
(4) The guidance defines “War Souvenir” as any item of enemy public or private property utilized as war material (i.e., military accouterments) acquired in the Iraqi area of operations during OIF and authorized to be retained by an individual pursuant to this memorandum. War souvenirs are limited to the following items: (1) helmets and head coverings; (2) uniforms and uniform items such as insignia and patches; (3) canteens,
compasses, rucksacks, pouches, and load-bearing equipment; (4) flags (not otherwise prohibited by 10 U.S.C. 4714 and 7216); (5) knives or bayonets, other than those defined as weaponry [in paragraph 3 below]; (6) military training manuals, books, and pamphlets; (7) posters, placards, and photographs; (8) currency of the former regime; or (9) other similar items that clearly pose no safety or health risk, and are not otherwise prohibited by law or regulation.

Under this interim guidance, a war souvenir does not include weaponry.

(5) Acquired. A war souvenir is acquired if it is captured, found abandoned, or obtained by any other lawful means. “Abandoned” for purposes of this interim guidance means property left behind by the enemy.
(6) Weaponry. For this guidance, weaponry includes, but is not limited to: weapons; weapons systems; firearms; ammunition; cartridge casings (“brass”); explosives of any type; switchblade knives; knives with
an automatic blade opener including knives in which the blade snaps forth from the grip (a) on pressing a button or lever or on releasing a catch with which the blade can be locked (spring knife), (b) by weight or by swinging motion and is locked automatically (gravity knife), or (c) by any operation, alone or in combination, of gravity or spring mechanism and can be locked; club-type hand weapons (for example, blackjacks, brass knuckles, nunchaku); and blades that are (a) particularly equipped to be collapsed, telescoped or shortened, (b) stripped beyond the normal extent required for hunting or sporting, or (c) concealed in other devices (for example, walking sticks, umbrellas, tubes). This definition applies whether an item is, in whole or in part, militarized or demilitarized, standing alone or
incorporated into other items (e.g., plaques or frames).
(7) Prohibited Items. For the purposes of this interim guidance, prohibited items include weaponry and personal items belonging to enemy combatants or civilians including, but not limited to: letters,
family pictures, identification cards, and “dog tags.”
(8) See also MNC-I General Order #1, contained as an appendix to the Criminal Law chapter.

in other words, clear as mud. it does appear to allow 'confiscated' knives like the one shown, if turned over to the expressly designated authorities and a written request for the retention by the serviceman is filed at the time of turning over & approved by the authority.

never having been in this position myself, i don't know what forms, approvals and documentation would be generated. i'd assume that for a valuable antique such as this that permission to retain would be hard to get & a well documented paper trail would go with it.

reminds me of all the gold weaponry in saddam's various private arsenals.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Awesome. I have taken screen prints of it. This way even if the topic is deleted, we get to have something atleast (now I need to know how to access the file which stores screenshots).

Can we contact ebay perhaps? I am not sure how that would help.. but if we show that this item is illegally taken from the Iraqi people they might help?

I think that the situation as it stands is that the eBay-buyer is probobly completely unaware of the 'history' of this item, but that the seller is promising to include this paperwork in the sale (according to thier auction 'paperwork included').
I'm guessing that the buyer is a fairly serious collector as they saw this and snapped it up using the 'buy it now' rather than bidding.
Clearly they recognised it's quality and didn't want to risk losing it in a bidding war. I guess they will be in for a suprise when they see what this paperwork actually is, and hopefully will be willing to explore the implications of it and provide a copy for discussion here.

If the military is providing exemption paperwork for dubiously acquired antique items of cultural significance then this is something of huge interest, and needs to be discussed and explored.
If the paperwork is examined and a mistake has been made (perhaps even not understanding the value and importance of the item) then that would leave a different set of questions to answer.

I would be very interested to see the paperwork.
I want to know under what circumstances any military can justify this kind of trophy hunting in a modern 'war of liberation'?

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks for the input, Kronckew.

Can you see how this would help in the case of this particular Item? I am trying to read this and make sense of it, but lets just say that am very weak when it comes to that :-)

Gene, I really hope that the seller is part of this forum. The paperwork will really help. If the paper work doesnt show up, am sure there are other methods to find it.

Regards,

Lotfy

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks for the input, Kronckew.

Can you see how this would help in the case of this particular Item? I am trying to read this and make sense of it, but lets just say that am very weak when it comes to that :-)

Gene, I really hope that the seller is part of this forum. The paperwork will really help. If the paper work doesnt show up, am sure there are other methods to find it.

Regards,

Lotfy

Absolutely, I'm sure we are all aware fo the long history of wartime bringbacks, but I'm sure we aren't the only ones a little 'suprised' that this ancient 'tradition' is being apparently condoned under these, shall we say 'unusual' circumstances in a modern conflict.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I want to know under what circumstances any military can justify this kind of trophy hunting in a modern 'war of liberation'?

Danger, thin ice ahead .
No politics please .

TIA,

Rick

[kronckew]

i've added a comment to my earlier post.

summary: appears to be allowed if approved by the appropriate authority. paperwork & request to retain by the individual would have to be filed at the same time as it is turned in to the authority.

i would bet that if the item was of sufficient value and culturally significant, any such permission could be appealed in a US military or civilian court.

trophies, either actual battlefield or bought in local markets by remfs and lied about as such, i am sure are coming out of afghanistan as well.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by kronckew

in other words, clear as mud. it does appear to allow 'confiscated' knives like the one shown, if turned over to the expressly designated authorities and a written request for the retention by the serviceman is filed at the time of turning over & approved by the authority.

never having been in this position myself, i don't know what forms, approvals and documentation would be generated. i'd assume that for a valuable antique such as this that permission to retain would be hard to get & a well documented paper trail would go with it.

reminds me of all the gold weaponry in saddam's various private arsenals.

My thoughts exactly.
We may be seeing a failure of process and a fine antique being treated with no more concern than a modern souvenir.
Which as I said above, asks a different set of questions in itself.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

Danger, thin ice ahead .
No politics please .

TIA,

Rick

Sorry Rick, treading carefully.
Is an eBay link OK?

[Rick]

Link/s ?
Yes .

Still, we are on a slippery slope; this is verging on OT and international politics .

We leave that stuff at the door when we enter, mate .
Get my drift ?

Rick

[kronckew]

i also noted that the circumstances of acquisition form part of the paperwork when you turn in an item.

i would think that they would differentiate between looting from non-combatants or from a museum, and picking it up off someone who had just been actively engaged in trying to terminate the picker-upper.

as in everything, provenance and the paper trail are highly important.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

Link/s ?
Yes .

Still, we are on a slippery slope; this is verging on OT and international politics .

We leave that stuff at the door when we enter, mate .
Get my drift ?

Rick

Absolutely. Message received and understood.
Editorial mode 'off'

Link to the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ottoman-Kurdish-...item3a690a030f

[carlitobrigante]

if the original story is true, then the seller may soon be put in an awkward situation of having to grass up his marine buddy as he will be traceable now through ebay if someone did manage to do something about it.

I could see how such items would be scattared about in a place like a Falluja after a battle like that.

We shouldnt assume either that this wasnt signed off officially by the US army as a legit war trophy. Considering the hardness of the fighting there and the casualties, a marine presenting what was likely an uncleaned dusty unimpressive looking dagger (in that condition, to the untrained eye) as a trophy to take home might not have met too much resistance from the persons responsible for signing off on it.

Although saying that, the fact its on ebay after the owner expressing that it most certainly was not for sale raises red flags.

Items like what this might be are the tip of the iceberg unfortunately as far as looting from that region in recent times goes. The looting of the Iraqi museums during the fall of Sadam still pains me to think about. I wonder whether any of it was recovered. Bet some made it to ebay.

[fernando]

Hi guys,
I don't want to be a kill-joy but ... why do i have the feeeling that the current subject isn't properly this forum business ?

[A.alnakkas]

Fernando,

We have no other choice, who ever bought it seems to be interested in antique blades or blades in general. There is a good chance that he is part of Vikingsword.

Also, this is not political and is merely a humane action. Put yourself in the position of the iraqi who may have lost this item. It was taken from the rubble of a building.. so I bet there is an iraqi now who is upset that an item belonging to his grandfather (maybe) is lost.

Its the least we can do to the Iraqi people...

Regards,

Abdullatif

[kronckew]

this thread is turning into

[Lew]

Sorry guys but I do not see how it is our business where or how this item got here for all we know this can be pure hear say. I can only see this going down a very slippery slope so I am locking this thread.