|
15th January 2016, 07:31 PM
|
#1 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
A composite 17 th century sword for comment.
This sword is without doubt with a later pommel and grip .
I Believe that the spatulate quillons are from periode . I ‘m wondering how could be classified this sword ,also I have never seen similar pommel. Is it an existing type or pure fantasy ? Also on the blade the inscription ME FECIT SALINGEN with what appear to be a trace of Passau wolf and not SOLINGEN. I found a link for a similar inscription but unfortunately this link is not working anymore. https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/NG-1647 Zwaard met opschrift 1414 ME FECIT SALINGEN zwaard (wapen), l 106,1cm. Meer objectgegevens. May be somebody has a explanation about Salingen in place of Solingen / Mistake or different place? Any comment will be welcome. Best cerjak |
|
|
|
15th January 2016, 07:58 PM
|
#2 |
|
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Hi Jean.Luc,
Try Hans von Salingen, a sword smith active in the early 17th. century. Apparently that sword in the Dutch Museum was dated circa 1609. |
|
|
|
|
16th January 2016, 09:28 AM
|
#3 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
|
|
16th January 2016, 12:07 PM
|
#4 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,948
|
This sword seems more of a theatrical or perhaps 'parade' type item, but nicely interpreted as such.
It seems that this particular inscription may derive from blades which likely were either from a Solingen maker working in Netherlands or in a shop producing them similarly in those regions The link that Ibrahiim has posted showing a 'sword' which has been assembled far less deftly in such theatrical style has a genuine old blade in excavated condition as its key feature. The use of '1414' and the running wolf are simply spurious representations of popular markings used on many Solingen blades. The so called 'Passau' wolf was one of the most widely duplicated forms and was actually more aligned with Solingen blades where it was heavily used. Its application as an indicator of quality became well known as it became diffused into other centers across Europe and into other cultural spheres |
|
|
|
|
16th January 2016, 03:21 PM
|
#5 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword.
Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword. the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me. The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made for the blade. The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel . I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later. So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 16th January 2016 at 04:53 PM. |
|
|
|
|
16th January 2016, 05:07 PM
|
#6 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
Thank you Jasper
Yes, to me this blade belonged to this guard do you have an example to show for a similar sword with the correct pommel ? Also what is your opinion about salingen mark ? Best Jean-Luc |
|
|
|
|
16th January 2016, 06:39 PM
|
#7 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
mmm..................all 17th century pommels are possible but a (flattened in the plan of the blade) globular or reversed egg-shaped pommel engraved as the guard would look nice.
pommel types such as in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17320 mefecit salingen= Solingen made me. I cannot enter my books but in wapenhandelinghe by jacop de gheyn is a sword of your type if I remember well. Last edited by cornelistromp; 16th January 2016 at 07:41 PM. |
|
|
|
|
17th January 2016, 12:36 PM
|
#8 |
|
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
My mistake ...
.
|
|
|
|
|
17th January 2016, 12:46 PM
|
#9 |
|
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
|
Salingen is a quarter or neighbourhood of Dortmund, Germany.
|
|
|
|
|
17th January 2016, 01:39 PM
|
#10 | |
|
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Quote:
 .
|
|
|
|
|
|
17th January 2016, 05:38 PM
|
#11 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
the blade with two short and one long Fullers characterizes several one+ a half handers in the 16th century. Last edited by cornelistromp; 17th January 2016 at 06:34 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
18th January 2016, 12:39 PM
|
#12 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
Quote:
So it could be Hans (sword smith ) from Salingen in Germany ? |
|
|
|
|
|
18th January 2016, 12:53 PM
|
#13 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
Quote:
There is no doubt that you have a large documentation and also an outstanding knowledge about the typology of swords components from this period. Best Jean-Luc |
|
|
|
|
|
18th January 2016, 02:11 PM
|
#14 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Iam still learning, Jean Luc
attachement: Jacob de Gheyns Wapenhandelinghe van Roers Musquetten ende spiessen, 1607 if you look to the hiltform a simple cross and a knuckle guard, in the 17th century. Last edited by cornelistromp; 18th January 2016 at 02:26 PM. |
|
|
|
|
29th January 2016, 03:05 AM
|
#15 |
|
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 233
|
Please forgive me and I hate to be a negative Nancy but I just dont see an early piece here.
The pommel- Looks 20th or maybe 19th century. Look at the sharp edges that appear modern machine made. The blade- The metal appears old but the script in the blade looks like a modern 20th century font that you would see on something modern. I dont think I've ever seen a script or font like this on anything older than 19th C. |
|
|
|
|
30th January 2016, 01:01 PM
|
#16 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
I found out in the meantime, that there's not many study for the simple crosshilted sword in the post-medieval period.
according to Claude Blair ( An English sword with an ottoman blade in the swiss national museum) this hiltvorm was in the civilian and military dress till the mid of the 16th century but there after seems to have gone out of fashion, until in the beginning of the 17th century it returned again mainly in the civilian dress. the available evidence for the use of Such swords in the 17th century actually only comes from England. See attached a simple English cross hilted sword with a similar paddle shaped guard as the sword under discussion, simple in form of course not the decoration. me fecit salingen seems a corruption of mefecit solingen, I do not believe salingen is the name of a sword maker, because often the first and last name of the sword maker was mentioned in the inscription.See an example of a rapier, 1630 in the V & A museum, monogram; inscribed ‘Me Fecit Salingen’ and inlaid with a running wolf. Also an example inscribed mefecit Solingen. best, jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 30th January 2016 at 01:17 PM. |
|
|
|
|
30th January 2016, 04:32 PM
|
#17 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
Quote:
You did a perfect job I can see that your thought about the type of pommel compatible with this sword in post 7 was exact: A Globular pommel would be perfect with this sword. Thank you again for the pictures. best Jean-Luc |
|
|
|
|
|
30th January 2016, 06:17 PM
|
#18 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
have you seen the last pictured hilt with the guard finals in the form of moor heads and the pommel where a lion was cut out.
really beautiful transitional small sword and probably Dutch, blade has master mark of meves berns. |
|
|
|
|
31st January 2016, 12:06 AM
|
#19 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 135
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
31st January 2016, 11:46 AM
|
#20 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 403
|
Detailed pictures of the pommel, the crossguard and the blade could help.
The sword also seems to be covered in old varnish or hardened oil. Its best to remove this as it does not ad to the intrinsic value of the sword and it would allow to take clear pictures .... its not like removing an old patina and in this case ther is no old patina under the varnish or grease. These are just suggestions of course. kind regards Ulfberth |
|
|
|
|
31st January 2016, 03:06 PM
|
#21 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
however in rare cases on the narrow up and down side sometimes is a border of points, hammered in or encrusted. RobertGuy would you please post an example where the engraved foliage pattern continues around the flat arms of a hilt, that would be very interesting ? re: inscription in the blade this must be engraved in relief and not etched on the surface of the blade of course. maybe Jean Luc can post high res pictures which could provide more clarity of all the components as proposed by Ulfberth best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 31st January 2016 at 03:18 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
31st January 2016, 06:46 PM
|
#22 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
extra pictures
here some extra pictures
|
|
|
|
|
31st January 2016, 08:16 PM
|
#23 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 403
|
Hi Jean Luc thank you for posting extra pictures,
from what i can see on the structure of the metal the blade seems 16th C. The blade looks to be thoroughly cleaned at one point in time because the lettering is partly worn out but there is little or no pitting in the blade. The cross guard could be late 16th or early 17th C , the engraving is good for the period. I cant say nothing about the pommel. kind regards Ulfberth |
|
|
|
|
1st February 2016, 12:40 AM
|
#24 |
|
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 135
|
I too will admit that the clearer pictures have certainly clarified things and presented a much better impression of the sword. The lettering is certainly much better presented with the depth of the characters clearly shown.
Cornelistromp, I admit defeat I cannot find a decent picture to illustrate my earlier statement about the cross guard. Plenty of cross guards on tulwars, small swords an even some rapiers where the decoration is in the round but nothing on a similar hilt.. so my bad 
|
|
|
|
|
1st February 2016, 04:26 PM
|
#25 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
1st February 2016, 05:23 PM
|
#26 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,948
|
This thread and the entire discourse is outstanding!! I cannot thank all of you participating here enough for these observations and the great illustrations.
This is like a course in arms study, and for an old nomad like me in a Winnebago who seldom sees or handles actual weapons in person, it is amazing  I thank Jen Luc for always sharing the excitement of new items he acquires so we can learn from them (Jasper, as you agree none of us ever stops learning). Ulfberth, thank you for your astute skills in observing details on the metal work and components in their character.......things I certainly miss each time never escape your eye! Jasper, if I may, it seems you mentioned that the spelling of Solingen adapted to that form at some point in time, leaving the SALINGEN spelling behind. Can you please reiterate? On the blocked letters on the blade of original post, I would have taken them for more modern as they seem so heavily stamped and don't seem to have the fine serifs and flourished features of the early examples shown in some of these illustrations. Only experience and keen eye as with you guys could discern that these are indeed early. Would that be likely from shop variation or worn stamps etc? |
|
|
|
|
1st February 2016, 07:33 PM
|
#27 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
nevertheless the silver hilted rapier from post nr16 with the MEFECIT SALINGEN blade is attributed by Claude Blair, the keeper of metalwork in the Victoria & Albert Museum for ten years before his retirement in 1982, to a Solingen workshop. my date of 1630 , 10 years earlier for the rapier's is also own interpretation. best, |
|
|
|
|
|
2nd February 2016, 06:01 PM
|
#28 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
this one is also nice.
|
|
|
|
|
2nd February 2016, 07:12 PM
|
#29 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams all.. Magnificent thread! ... In reference to http://art-of-swords.tumblr.com/post...lace-of-origin What does the text imply about this spelling? It appears to indicate that Latin uses the SALINGEN form rather than SOLINGEN. Is this the case here? Quote"The hilt of this sword was made in England, almost certainly in London, but its plain, serviceable blade is stamped with a Latin inscription indicating that it was made in Solingen, Germany".Unquote In that region in the past it has been called similar names but not Salingen: From wikepedia Quote "Solingen was first mentioned in 1067 by a chronicler who called the area "Solonchon". Early variations of the name included "Solengen", "Solungen", and "Soleggen", although the modern name seems to have been in use since the late 14th and early 15th centuries". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd February 2016 at 07:35 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
2nd February 2016, 07:55 PM
|
#30 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
A famous quotation..
I Quote" Salingen a Sword Cutler.—A sword in my possession, with inlaid basket guard, perhaps of the early part of the seventeenth century, is inscribed on the blade "Salingen me fecit." If this is the name of a sword cutler, who was he, and when and where did he live?"Unquote.
T.S. LAWRENCE. (SEE this quote on page 133 at Gutenbergs page on http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13736...-h/13736-h.htm) Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
