My first Keris

Athanase · 8th November 2016, 11:40 PM

Hello,

Here's the first keris I bought 8 years ago in Graz (Austria).
This javanese keris is very modest quality. It seems pre WWII. At that time I knew very little about the keris, but I really liked the pamor.

Now when I look, I realize that there is something anormal about ricikan.
Or : someone wanted to remove rust of the blade ( with a very brutal way) and filed down the reliefs.
Either: the original dapur not possessed of Kembang Kacang and it has been created later by an awkward artisan.

What do you think?

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2016, 01:10 AM

No, not an alteration, very probably a Madura keris from pre-WWII, the gonjo has been altered or replaced, but the wilah --- the body of the keris --- is typical.

kai · 9th November 2016, 01:29 AM

Hello Athanase,

To be frank, I don't think that the blade got reworked at a later time - it seems to be of low village quality and would not be worth spending additional time, sorry.

I believe the scabbard doesn't belong to this blade - have you checked the fit? With its wronko iras construction it is a really nice and desirable example!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2016, 02:54 AM

I'd be amazed if this scabbard had been made for the blade, complete, original ensembles are not really expected at this level.

Maybe the gambar has been cracked and mended?

Athanase · 9th November 2016, 11:11 PM

The gandar (= gambar?) is not cracked but warangka was split and then glued.
The fitting/adjustement of the blade in the sheath is good, but not perfect.

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2016, 11:50 PM

The correct name for the entire scabbard is warangka = wrangka = wrongko

The long lower part of the scabbard is known as the gandar

The wide upper part of the scabbard is known as the gambar

These are Javanese terms, terms in other places vary.

So it seems that the gambar has in fact been repaired.

About the use of the word "warangka" & etc to refer to the large top section of a wrongko.

I have found that most people who work as a tukang wrongko, most people in the keris world in Solo use the word "atasan" which simply means "top" to refer to this part of the scabbard, but Empu Suparman and a m'ranggi whom I used to know + 20 years ago usually referred to it as "gambar", which they assured me was the correct name. Their level of knowledge in this field was far in excess of the general run of people, so I am quite certain that their usage was correct.

In the currently popular books that most keris collectors use, I cannot find reference to the use of "gambar" to refer to the top section of a wrongko, it seems that although it may be strictly correct usage, it is usage that has been forgotten.

"Gambar" is a Javanese word as well as an Indonesian word, and its generally known meaning is a picture or illustration.

Jean · 10th November 2016, 05:52 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the clarification and as you say no reference book related to Javanese krisses (EK and Keris Jawa for instance) seems to mention the name gambar for the scabbard crosspiece (or how would do you call it in English?).

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2016, 11:16 PM

I reckon that the English reference to this top piece would be up to the individual user of English. Whatever gets the message across is good enough.

Athanase · 11th November 2016, 02:15 PM

Thank you Allan for all these details.
On the different website that I consulted the nomenclature was unclear and varied a lot.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2016, 10:06 PM

Yes, you can get a whole string of strange looking words with little lines connecting to different parts of the scabbard. They confuse me, and I know them all backwards, I hate to think what they look like to somebody who is a new comer to this game.

Same thing with the keris itself.

In my opinion its perfectly OK to use English to talk about these things, the usual words that are used in other languages can come later, if one develops a continuing interest.

Athanase · 15th December 2016, 04:14 PM

Hello,
Sorry for the late response. I finally took the picture which shows that the sheath has been repaired and modified to fit perfectly with the blade.

David · 15th December 2016, 05:14 PM

Yes Athanase, i believe this shows exactly what Alan suspected in post #3, that this sheath was not originally made for this blade, but rather, adapted to fit it at a later date.

zeus74 · 18th December 2016, 01:27 AM

hello.. that's kris have dapur (shape) sempana bungkem with pamor (painting) melati sinebar i guess. good for lawyer or debater, because its tuah (power) is to make opposition can't talk too much. i'm javanese.

David · 18th December 2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus74

hello.. that's kris have dapur (shape) sempana bungkem with pamor (painting) melati sinebar i guess. good for lawyer or debater, because its tuah (power) is to make opposition can't talk too much. i'm javanese.

Well Zeus, you would have to be a very good lawyer or debater indeed to convince me that is pamor melati sinebar.

Athanase · 22nd December 2016, 01:23 PM

For me, the pamor Sekar Susun is more closer to the pamor of my keris.

But it is still very difficult for me to identify the pamor.

8th November 2016, 11:40 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	My first Keris Hello, Here's the first keris I bought 8 years ago in Graz (Austria). This javanese keris is very modest quality. It seems pre WWII. At that time I knew very little about the keris, but I really liked the pamor. Now when I look, I realize that there is something anormal about ricikan. Or : someone wanted to remove rust of the blade ( with a very brutal way) and filed down the reliefs. Either: the original dapur not possessed of Kembang Kacang and it has been created later by an awkward artisan. What do you think? Attached Images

15th December 2016, 04:14 PM	#11
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Hello, Sorry for the late response. I finally took the picture which shows that the sheath has been repaired and modified to fit perfectly with the blade. Attached Images

9th November 2016, 01:10 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	No, not an alteration, very probably a Madura keris from pre-WWII, the gonjo has been altered or replaced, but the wilah --- the body of the keris --- is typical.

9th November 2016, 01:29 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Athanase, To be frank, I don't think that the blade got reworked at a later time - it seems to be of low village quality and would not be worth spending additional time, sorry. I believe the scabbard doesn't belong to this blade - have you checked the fit? With its wronko iras construction it is a really nice and desirable example! Regards, Kai

9th November 2016, 02:54 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I'd be amazed if this scabbard had been made for the blade, complete, original ensembles are not really expected at this level. Maybe the gambar has been cracked and mended?

9th November 2016, 11:11 PM	#5
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	The gandar (= gambar?) is not cracked but warangka was split and then glued. The fitting/adjustement of the blade in the sheath is good, but not perfect.

9th November 2016, 11:50 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	The correct name for the entire scabbard is warangka = wrangka = wrongko The long lower part of the scabbard is known as the gandar The wide upper part of the scabbard is known as the gambar These are Javanese terms, terms in other places vary. So it seems that the gambar has in fact been repaired. About the use of the word "warangka" & etc to refer to the large top section of a wrongko. I have found that most people who work as a tukang wrongko, most people in the keris world in Solo use the word "atasan" which simply means "top" to refer to this part of the scabbard, but Empu Suparman and a m'ranggi whom I used to know + 20 years ago usually referred to it as "gambar", which they assured me was the correct name. Their level of knowledge in this field was far in excess of the general run of people, so I am quite certain that their usage was correct. In the currently popular books that most keris collectors use, I cannot find reference to the use of "gambar" to refer to the top section of a wrongko, it seems that although it may be strictly correct usage, it is usage that has been forgotten. "Gambar" is a Javanese word as well as an Indonesian word, and its generally known meaning is a picture or illustration.

10th November 2016, 05:52 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for the clarification and as you say no reference book related to Javanese krisses (EK and Keris Jawa for instance) seems to mention the name gambar for the scabbard crosspiece (or how would do you call it in English?). Regards

10th November 2016, 11:16 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I reckon that the English reference to this top piece would be up to the individual user of English. Whatever gets the message across is good enough.

11th November 2016, 02:15 PM	#9
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Thank you Allan for all these details. On the different website that I consulted the nomenclature was unclear and varied a lot.

11th November 2016, 10:06 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Yes, you can get a whole string of strange looking words with little lines connecting to different parts of the scabbard. They confuse me, and I know them all backwards, I hate to think what they look like to somebody who is a new comer to this game. Same thing with the keris itself. In my opinion its perfectly OK to use English to talk about these things, the usual words that are used in other languages can come later, if one develops a continuing interest.

15th December 2016, 05:14 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Yes Athanase, i believe this shows exactly what Alan suspected in post #3, that this sheath was not originally made for this blade, but rather, adapted to fit it at a later date.

18th December 2016, 01:27 AM	#13
zeus74 Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 7	hello.. that's kris have dapur (shape) sempana bungkem with pamor (painting) melati sinebar i guess. good for lawyer or debater, because its tuah (power) is to make opposition can't talk too much. i'm javanese.

22nd December 2016, 01:23 PM	#15
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	For me, the pamor Sekar Susun is more closer to the pamor of my keris. But it is still very difficult for me to identify the pamor.