Bugis keris gonjo iras

Anthony G. · 30th December 2021, 10:55 AM

Hi, I asked around and some people told me it is to test the skill of the craftsman while some people said it has spiritual meaning. Anyone knows exactly what is the reason for gonjo iras? I think some Balinese keris also has it.

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2021, 12:32 PM

$$$$$

Anthony G. · 30th December 2021, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

$$$$$

pardon me, Alan but what does $$$ means?

Jean · 30th December 2021, 02:43 PM

Less $$$$$ I think (simpler to make)?

David · 30th December 2021, 05:32 PM

Perhaps it is $$$$$. But i am not completely convinced by the argument so i am not sure it is always the case. Certainly enough spiritual symbolism has been applied to the concept of the separate gonjo and pesi relationship that is it hard to completely dismiss that their may be a spiritual meaning to a gonjo that is created as one with the blade.

Jean · 30th December 2021, 08:40 PM

There are several specimens of Bugis kris blades with ganja iras shown in the reference book "Senjata pusaka Bugis" so it seems to be quite commonly used in Sulawesi.

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2021, 09:00 PM

David, I do not know of any long standing, spiritually tinted explanation for a keris that has an integral gonjo, however, should one wish generate such an explanation, it would not be difficult to do so.

What I do know is that fitting a gonjo to a blade is a painstaking, difficult job.It can be quite frustrating trying to get a neat metal to metal fit.

When making a blade that is intended purely for use as a weapon, it is much easier to simply forge the asymmetric shape into the blade base than it is to spend time fitting a separate gonjo.

If you spend less time making that object, you can charge less for it, you can increase production and make more money. If you make more money you can support more wives and maybe have each of them living in their own house so that there is more harmony in your own house.

I truly do believe that the economic argument for the integral gonjo is pretty hard to move past.

First & foremost the keris was a weapon, then it became a number of other things. The gonjo that we see fitted to very early keris in monumental works very probably was also made necessary by the limitations of forge technology at that time.

In the final analysis how we think of anything depends very much upon our own world view. To the Romans the cross was an instrument of punishment & death. Following the crucifixion of Christ it became a holy symbol for the followers of Christ.

JeffS · 31st December 2021, 01:45 AM

Does a separate gonjo have a practical mechanical function or is it completely a matter of mysticism/symbolism?

A. G. Maisey · 31st December 2021, 03:14 AM

Well Jeff, that depends upon the time, the place & the situation --- as well as a thousand other things.

In things to do with the keris there is never just one answer to any question.

Don't forget, it is at its core a Javanese thing, and for Javanese people, the more meanings, the more understandings that they can give to anything, the better it is for all concerned.

David · 31st December 2021, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Well Jeff, that depends upon the time, the place & the situation --- as well as a thousand other things.

Your answer does seem to imply that there was indeed a time, place and situation where the gonjo did serve a “practical mechanical function”. Let’s start there. What would that have been?

A. G. Maisey · 31st December 2021, 08:34 PM

If we consider the design of early keris and other keris-like implements, as shown in 1000 year old monumental works, we can very clearly see that these weapons, at this time, did in fact have a separate gonjo.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/origin-of-the-keris

The manners in which a keris, or keris-like implement, was held when employed as a weapon dictates that the blade base needed to be sufficiently wide to cushion the hand and forefinger against impact. In many other weapons employed in a similar manner, but coming from other societies, this cushioning effect is achieved by the fitting of a separate guard to the blade.

The keris became an icon of its society of origin as time passed, and it achieved over time, the esoteric interpretations that it now carries.

In early Javanese literary works the keris is depicted as purely a weapon. This weapon function continued for hundreds of years, and still exists, alongside the many & various esoteric interpretations attached to the keris.

Some of these esoteric interpretations have existed for lengthy periods of time, other interpretations seem to arisen only very recently.

30th December 2021, 10:55 AM	#1
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 463	Bugis keris gonjo iras Hi, I asked around and some people told me it is to test the skill of the craftsman while some people said it has spiritual meaning. Anyone knows exactly what is the reason for gonjo iras? I think some Balinese keris also has it. Attached Images

30th December 2021, 12:32 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	$$$$$

30th December 2021, 02:43 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Less $$$$$ I think (simpler to make)?

30th December 2021, 05:32 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Perhaps it is $$$$$. But i am not completely convinced by the argument so i am not sure it is always the case. Certainly enough spiritual symbolism has been applied to the concept of the separate gonjo and pesi relationship that is it hard to completely dismiss that their may be a spiritual meaning to a gonjo that is created as one with the blade.

30th December 2021, 08:40 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	There are several specimens of Bugis kris blades with ganja iras shown in the reference book "Senjata pusaka Bugis" so it seems to be quite commonly used in Sulawesi.

30th December 2021, 09:00 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	David, I do not know of any long standing, spiritually tinted explanation for a keris that has an integral gonjo, however, should one wish generate such an explanation, it would not be difficult to do so. What I do know is that fitting a gonjo to a blade is a painstaking, difficult job.It can be quite frustrating trying to get a neat metal to metal fit. When making a blade that is intended purely for use as a weapon, it is much easier to simply forge the asymmetric shape into the blade base than it is to spend time fitting a separate gonjo. If you spend less time making that object, you can charge less for it, you can increase production and make more money. If you make more money you can support more wives and maybe have each of them living in their own house so that there is more harmony in your own house. I truly do believe that the economic argument for the integral gonjo is pretty hard to move past. First & foremost the keris was a weapon, then it became a number of other things. The gonjo that we see fitted to very early keris in monumental works very probably was also made necessary by the limitations of forge technology at that time. In the final analysis how we think of anything depends very much upon our own world view. To the Romans the cross was an instrument of punishment & death. Following the crucifixion of Christ it became a holy symbol for the followers of Christ.

31st December 2021, 01:45 AM	#8
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 345	Does a separate gonjo have a practical mechanical function or is it completely a matter of mysticism/symbolism?

31st December 2021, 03:14 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Well Jeff, that depends upon the time, the place & the situation --- as well as a thousand other things. In things to do with the keris there is never just one answer to any question. Don't forget, it is at its core a Javanese thing, and for Javanese people, the more meanings, the more understandings that they can give to anything, the better it is for all concerned.

31st December 2021, 08:34 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	If we consider the design of early keris and other keris-like implements, as shown in 1000 year old monumental works, we can very clearly see that these weapons, at this time, did in fact have a separate gonjo. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/origin-of-the-keris The manners in which a keris, or keris-like implement, was held when employed as a weapon dictates that the blade base needed to be sufficiently wide to cushion the hand and forefinger against impact. In many other weapons employed in a similar manner, but coming from other societies, this cushioning effect is achieved by the fitting of a separate guard to the blade. The keris became an icon of its society of origin as time passed, and it achieved over time, the esoteric interpretations that it now carries. In early Javanese literary works the keris is depicted as purely a weapon. This weapon function continued for hundreds of years, and still exists, alongside the many & various esoteric interpretations attached to the keris. Some of these esoteric interpretations have existed for lengthy periods of time, other interpretations seem to arisen only very recently.