Sudan Mahdist daggers

colin henshaw · 6th July 2013, 09:43 AM

Hi

Thought those forumites with an African interest would like to see these daggers, both with their hilts engraved with reference to the famous Battle of Abu Klea, 17th September 1885. This took place during the British attempt to rescue General Gordon from the siege at Khartoum...

No guarantee of course that the inscriptions have not been added spuriously, but they seem contemporary with the daggers.

As always, comments are welcome.

Iain · 6th July 2013, 10:54 AM

Nice pieces Colin.

Interestingly, on the hooked design, according to Ed's paper on the Kassala industry, this is known as a "soat'al" and was first made in 1916.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12845 (it's on page 42 of the PDF)

Regards,

Iain

Edster · 6th July 2013, 08:32 PM

Iain/Colin,

I've done subsequent research on the origin of the Hadendowa soat'al and it seems that the 1916 attribution is apocryphal. I inquired to the British Badge Forum that showed a badge of the camel corps out of Eastern Sudan. See attached link to the link. Eddie Parks of the forum informed me that a very similar knife to the soat'al had been collected in 1882-83 by Juan Maria Schuver before his death in Sudan in 1883. Unfortunately, the link provided is no longer active. Perhaps others can penetrate the Schuver Collection in the Rijksmuseum Volkenkunde ( National Ethnographic Museum) in Leiden for the image. Its very close in style to the lower knife Colin posted. Very likely the Mahdist period attribution is correct. Note that Colin's grip form is more Nile Valley as opposed to the more emerging "modern" style of Kassala suggested on Schuver's piece. Both blades are pretty much the same.
.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=25756

Link about Schuver and his travels.

http://volkenkunde.nl/sites/default/...schuver_uk.pdf

Below is a scanned fuzzy image of the Schuver's 1882-83 collection piece.

Regards,
Ed

colin henshaw · 7th July 2013, 11:56 AM

Thanks to Iain and Edster for their comments about these daggers. Unfortunately, no documentation came with them to completely verify their provenance.

Regarding the second dagger shown with the dog-leg shaped blade; I agree it appears very unlikely this form was invented in 1916. In addition to the example cited by Edster, there is also a dagger very similar to mine, illustrated in one of W O Oldman's early sale catalogues, which he published in the years 1902 - 1914.

Regards.

Iain · 7th July 2013, 05:47 PM

Hi Colin and Ed,

Good to hear the 1916 can be disregarded.

I always thought it a bit odd that such an iconic design was from that late a date.

Edster · 7th July 2013, 08:46 PM

Continuing research often closes some doors and opens others. That's the fun of our field. The blade soat'al form has lasted a considerable period. But the grip/handle has evolved and perhaps the back-to-back "C" configuration was a modern innovation, perhaps at the time of the Eastern Camel Corps participation in the 1916 Ali Dinar Campaign, perhaps even later. It would be interesting to see soat'als from various periods.

The C grip is held by the first and second fingers which allows better range of slashing motions than a conventional "fist" grip. See the post and period photographs below. Note that most of the Beja wear the old J shaped blade knife with its characteristic fist grip.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9991

Ed

CharlesS · 7th July 2013, 09:00 PM

Geeeees this thread is missing Lew.

Iain · 8th July 2013, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Continuing research often closes some doors and opens others. That's the fun of our field. The blade soat'al form has lasted a considerable period. But the grip/handle has evolved and perhaps the back-to-back "C" configuration was a modern innovation, perhaps at the time of the Eastern Camel Corps participation in the 1916 Ali Dinar Campaign, perhaps even later. It would be interesting to see soat'als from various periods.

The C grip is held by the first and second fingers which allows better range of slashing motions than a conventional "fist" grip. See the post and period photographs below. Note that most of the Beja wear the old J shaped blade knife with its characteristic fist grip.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9991

Ed

Hi Ed,

Completely agree - I still find it interesting that someone in kassala was apparently trying to take credit for the design!

To get back to the two daggers of Colin's... The inscriptions and dates seem perfectly in line with the items and I see no reason to suspect they don't date to the period.

It's always fantastic I think to see properly dated examples and gives a very valuable benchmark.

colin henshaw · 8th July 2013, 02:37 PM

Hi

To move the discussion along a bit - I had always thought of these Sudanese knives with crooked or dog-leg blades, as being used only by Beja tribes from the Red Sea Hills. However, reading up on the Battle of Abu Klea, it seems Beja warriors were not present, and that the Mahdist forces were comprised mainly of tribes from Kordofan and others from the Nile Valley area. So bearing in mind Edster's observation about the hilt on my dagger, not being the Beja "double C", perhaps the crooked type of dagger form was used more widely in the Sudan than previously thought.

There is also my earlier theory put forward about derivation from the Ancient Egyptian sword "khepesh" to bear in mind...

Has anyone further ideas on this topic ?

Regards.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2013, 10:42 PM

These 'dog leg' blades have been discussed quite a few times over the years.
Very much agreed Charles, Lew is deeply missed and especially in the daggers field where his knowledge was outstanding.

I agree that this blade shape certainly comes from earlier periods and agree also that the profound influence of Egyptian forms seems to have survived in these type blades as well as other African weapons, as suggested by Colin.

It is interesting that these examples however, seem to be mounted in the simple hilt form similar to Ethiopian 'shotels' and in varying degree with numerous other African hilt forms rather than the 'reversed C' pattern that is
usually seen on these. While this does not dismiss the possibility of these blades having been mounted as is during these campaigns, it does make the attribution to Abu Klea a bit more tenuous.
I am inclined to think that with the thriving souvenier trade, perhaps these authentic blades were mounted during the post campaign occupation and commemoratively inscribed.

As for the tribal attribution for these distinctly shaped and angled blades, it would be extremely difficult to provenance them given the diffusion of these forms intertribally. Generally the Beja attribution may apply collectively as they seem to have been used by various tribes of this group, many who were indeed in campaigns in those times.

On a side note regarding these reversed C hilts, does anyone else think they have a certain similarity to the Indian chilanum, the open hilt type of 'anthromorphic' form rather than knuckleguard type?

colin henshaw · 12th July 2013, 10:07 AM

Did a bit more internet searching on the Battle of Abu Klea, and found this dramatized painting of the battle by William Barnes Wollen, which shows the Mahdist warriors as Beja tribesmen. So, its difficult to be completely sure as to the composition of the Mahdist forces.

I've seen a few native weapons (and other artefacts), relating to various colonial campaigns, with inscriptions - sometimes incised into the wood, sometimes small silver or brass plaques and sometimes written in ink. Doubtless a proportion of these are spurious, but it seemed a popular practice in the 19th/early 20th century. Probably many of these inscriptions were done in Europe ?

Given the huge number of weapons available after the Battle of Omdurman, due to the high Sudanese casualties, I am doubtful if my examples have been made up as souvenirs, as suggested by Jim. However, the inscriptions could have been falsely applied - hard to be sure. Regarding the dagger with the dog-leg blade and simpler hilt form, my feeling is this is just a regional variance.

The Mahdist period is certainly very interesting for the weapons enthusiast - if anyone has items relating to this period, do please post them...

collectingspears · 12th July 2013, 07:59 PM

For those interested in the Mahdist troops clothing I suggest the book Fire & Sword in Sudan by Rudolf Slatin a german who was held as a slave by the successor to the Mahdi, the Kalifa. If my memory services me well they wore patchwork shirt like clothing called a Jebba.

Iain · 12th July 2013, 09:39 PM

Hi Colin,

I'd agree, collection labels and similar seem to have been popular at the time. I tend to think most of these are contemporary to the time the pieces were collected - the only caveat being if the new owner obtained it from a reputable source, or was sold it off a street corner in Cairo as an "authentic" Omdurman souvenir.

I'm afraid my own collecting habits rarely tend towards events in the Sudan, so I don't have examples to show, but I think it's worth mentioning a lot of bring backs from military action were cataloged properly at the point of collection - for example the items in the Blair castle collection.

All the best,

Iain

Congoblades · 12th July 2013, 10:17 PM

Have some but no idea about the age.

Iain · 14th July 2013, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Have some but no idea about the age.

Nice examples! I've never handled one myself but I'm interested how far the range for these was? And among which ethnic groups?

I'm aware of course of the Beja association, but as we find with many other forms, they were often used outside of the most widely known ethnic group associated with the form.

Oliver Pinchot · 14th July 2013, 07:36 PM

I just acquired Go Strong Into The Desert The Mahdist Uprising in Sudan 1881-85 by Lt. Col. Mike Snook.
It is an exceptional piece of research, detailing the political environment, battles, and particularly garments and armor; it is also very well illustrated. Available at www.perry-miniatures.com

Iain · 14th July 2013, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

I just acquired Go Strong Into The Desert The Mahdist Uprising in Sudan 1881-85 by Lt. Col. Mike Snook.
It is an exceptional piece of research, detailing the political environment, battles, and particularly garments and armor; it is also very well illustrated. Available at www.perry-miniatures.com

Thanks for the recommendation. The book looks interesting, is it mainly focused on the British forces, equipment and dress, or is it equally slanted towards the Mahdist forces. My interest would primarily be in any historical photos of Madhist foot and cavalry and associated dress and equipment.

colin henshaw · 15th July 2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Have some but no idea about the age.

Hi Congoblades

Thanks for posting these. Always difficult to date, but I would guess at first half of the 20th century. The one with the dog-leg blade maybe earlier than the other two ? They illustrate well that patchy, deep rust pitting often to be found on Sudanese and Somali blades, for some reason that I can't fathom... The images also show the subtle difference in hilt styles.

Here are a couple of images that show Mahdist (Ansar) dress and weapons, for interest. They are from the books "Fire and Sword in the Sudan" and "A Prisoner of the Khaleefa".

Regards.

Oliver Pinchot · 16th July 2013, 07:53 PM

Iain,

This book deals almost exclusively with the Sudanese and their
allies. It offers good archival photographs and has detailed drawings,
most of which are in color.

Oliver

Iain · 16th July 2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Iain,

This book deals almost exclusively with the Sudanese and their
allies. It offers good archival photographs and has detailed drawings,
most of which are in color.

Oliver

Perfect, I'll order a copy for sure. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention.

colin henshaw · 31st July 2013, 09:44 AM

As an aside for anyone interested in form and design on ethnographic items. Was doing some reading up on Native American material, and find that the "double C" or "reversed C" form employed on some Beja dagger hilts, is also to be found on American Indian objects, particularly Woodlands area.

Seems design forms often developed independently in different cultures...

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

As an aside for anyone interested in form and design on ethnographic items. Was doing some reading up on Native American material, and find that the "double C" or "reversed C" form employed on some Beja dagger hilts, is also to be found on American Indian objects, particularly Woodlands area.

Seems design forms often developed independently in different cultures...

Excellent observation Colin!! and one of the key elements in studying ethnographic arms. In many cases there are of course instances of independant evolution of forms, especially the simpler types, and this is something often faced in the study of the symbology often seen as well.

This of course often leads to many in degree, tenuous free associations which with further research may subsequently be plausibly supported or patently dismissed.

The American Indian culture is powerfully fascinating, and I always wish there was more activity here discussing thier weapons and culture. In many cases there is tempting evidence tying various arms to cultures of course such as in Asia and Mexico in 'pre-contact' context, the bow and arrow and the atlatl. Naturally stone tools and weapons seem to have similar development in broad scope over immense periods of time, as seen in the connections of Clovis culture prehistorically compared from New Mexico to European regions.
Thank you for noting my suggestion that the influence of other cultures, in my reference toward India, were quite plausible in many African arms. As we have also noted, it seems that is sometimes the case in degree with iconographic sources of Egyptian forms.

Returning to the discussion on these Sudanese daggers, as we have agreed, commemorative inscriptions were often placed or inscribed on arms provenanced to certain events or battles. I did not mean to imply in my earlier comments that these were spuriously fabricated, but that perhaps authentically provenanced blades may have been mounted with these hilts and notably inscribed.
Many captured blades are often found in hybrid context remounted, and inscribed with provenanencial notes in various instances.

The excellent images in post #18 are (on the left) Rudolph Slatin (author of 'Fire & Sword' 1896 as you noted) who was the Austrian soldier who was appointed Governor of Darfur by Gordon, captured and prisoner of the Mahdi's forces for 11 years. Also an excellent reference on this is "Prisoners of the Mahdi", by the late Byron Farwell, 1989.

P.S.
Always good to see Oliver, one of the pioneer weapons researchers around here!!

Aleksey · 9th September 2014, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Iain/Colin,

I've done subsequent research on the origin of the Hadendowa soat'al and it seems that the 1916 attribution is apocryphal. I inquired to the British Badge Forum that showed a badge of the camel corps out of Eastern Sudan. See attached link to the link. Eddie Parks of the forum informed me that a very similar knife to the soat'al had been collected in 1882-83 by Juan Maria Schuver before his death in Sudan in 1883. Unfortunately, the link provided is no longer active. Perhaps others can penetrate the Schuver Collection in the Rijksmuseum Volkenkunde ( National Ethnographic Museum) in Leiden for the image. Its very close in style to the lower knife Colin posted. Very likely the Mahdist period attribution is correct. Note that Colin's grip form is more Nile Valley as opposed to the more emerging "modern" style of Kassala suggested on Schuver's piece. Both blades are pretty much the same.
.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=25756

Link about Schuver and his travels.

http://volkenkunde.nl/sites/default/...schuver_uk.pdf

Below is a scanned fuzzy image of the Schuver's 1882-83 collection piece.

Regards,
Ed

Let me follow-up the thread!

As for me we need to pay attention to the fact that in Ge'ez (the anceint Semitic language used by Christian priests in Ethiopia for liturgy) the word "shotel" means simply "dagger".

Ethiopian scholar Tewolde Berhan Gebre Egziabher (b. 1940) wrote:

Quote:

To a more limited extent, the dagger (methaht or shotel) and javelin (armah) were also used, as reported for Yifat.(49) The dagger also features in the death of the important warrior, Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim El Ghazi, which was effected by an unnamed poor man in Shire, western Tigray. (50)

http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/unup...human%20rights

AFAIK no depiction of sickle-shaped shotel (sabre) is known before XIX century. The best one is among mural paintings of Ura Kidhane Mihret monastery (Tana Lake) - see the attachement.

In the midst of XVIII century (1751-1752) the Czech Franciscan monk named Remedius Prutky meant shotel several times in his notes about his travel in Ethiopia. But the word was used by him to describe a carving knife.

So I consulted with the scholar (specialist in Amharic and Ge'ez) in the St. Petersburg State University and he told that intially word shotel meant short knife or dagger as Tewolde Berhan Gebre Egziabher said.

So could we assume that the word was wide spread across the region meaning the short hooked blade and only in Ethiopia this blade was transformed to the long sickle-shaped sabre? To be honest the Ethiopian-made shotel blades are not so hooked as European-made blades for shotel!

Edster · 10th September 2014, 12:19 AM

Hello Aleksey,

Thanks for your observation. We students of ethnographic weapons are often faced with similar language terms used to identify the same type of weapons or the same or similar terms to identify different ones. The dog-leg blade knife, regardless of its origin and development is known as the soat'al by the Hadendawa ethnic group who traditionally live in both modern Sudan and in Ethiopia. Informants at the sword market in Kassala told me that the name Soat'al is a Hadendawa word for liver. It is said that one slice with the knife will cut a man to his liver. The name is said to have originated when the knife was thrown at a lion and severed its liver in two parts. The "Arabic" term of reference is Shotal and is virtually identical to the name of the Abyssian sickle sword discussed above.

Regards,
Ed

Aleksey · 10th September 2014, 09:18 PM

Dear Ed,

We need to compare the actual Fuzzy-Wuzzy knives in XIX century and modern knives.

AFAIK they used straight knives in 1880th onwards.

Then we shood seek for such knives in Museums of Sudan and ajacent countries as European collections could boast only the itrems of the end of XIX century.

And at last we should understand what "shotel" means in Arabic language? Is it a word from classic Arabic language or is it being spread only among Sudanese Arabs?

The Fuzzi-Wuzzy legend seems to be very modern and ethimologistic - to my mind they borrowed the thing alongside with the name and them "explained" the meaning by so called foulk ethimology.

In any case I am glad to talk with you especially after getting acquainted with your notes about Kassala

P.S. could you post the emblem of E.A.C. here?

Aleksey · 11th September 2014, 10:15 AM

I am awfully sorry - I forgot the attachement!

So please find enclosed the mural painting from Ura Kidhane Mihret Monastery, Tana Lake, depicting the classic Ethiopian shotel:

6th July 2013, 08:32 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Iain/Colin, I've done subsequent research on the origin of the Hadendowa soat'al and it seems that the 1916 attribution is apocryphal. I inquired to the British Badge Forum that showed a badge of the camel corps out of Eastern Sudan. See attached link to the link. Eddie Parks of the forum informed me that a very similar knife to the soat'al had been collected in 1882-83 by Juan Maria Schuver before his death in Sudan in 1883. Unfortunately, the link provided is no longer active. Perhaps others can penetrate the Schuver Collection in the Rijksmuseum Volkenkunde ( National Ethnographic Museum) in Leiden for the image. Its very close in style to the lower knife Colin posted. Very likely the Mahdist period attribution is correct. Note that Colin's grip form is more Nile Valley as opposed to the more emerging "modern" style of Kassala suggested on Schuver's piece. Both blades are pretty much the same. . http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=25756 Link about Schuver and his travels. http://volkenkunde.nl/sites/default/...schuver_uk.pdf Below is a scanned fuzzy image of the Schuver's 1882-83 collection piece. Regards, Ed Attached Images

12th July 2013, 10:07 AM	#11
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Did a bit more internet searching on the Battle of Abu Klea, and found this dramatized painting of the battle by William Barnes Wollen, which shows the Mahdist warriors as Beja tribesmen. So, its difficult to be completely sure as to the composition of the Mahdist forces. I've seen a few native weapons (and other artefacts), relating to various colonial campaigns, with inscriptions - sometimes incised into the wood, sometimes small silver or brass plaques and sometimes written in ink. Doubtless a proportion of these are spurious, but it seemed a popular practice in the 19th/early 20th century. Probably many of these inscriptions were done in Europe ? Given the huge number of weapons available after the Battle of Omdurman, due to the high Sudanese casualties, I am doubtful if my examples have been made up as souvenirs, as suggested by Jim. However, the inscriptions could have been falsely applied - hard to be sure. Regarding the dagger with the dog-leg blade and simpler hilt form, my feeling is this is just a regional variance. The Mahdist period is certainly very interesting for the weapons enthusiast - if anyone has items relating to this period, do please post them... Attached Images Last edited by colin henshaw; 12th July 2013 at 11:15 AM.

12th July 2013, 10:17 PM	#14
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Have some but no idea about the age. Attached Images

6th July 2013, 09:43 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Sudan Mahdist daggers Hi Thought those forumites with an African interest would like to see these daggers, both with their hilts engraved with reference to the famous Battle of Abu Klea, 17th September 1885. This took place during the British attempt to rescue General Gordon from the siege at Khartoum... No guarantee of course that the inscriptions have not been added spuriously, but they seem contemporary with the daggers. As always, comments are welcome. Attached Images

6th July 2013, 10:54 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Nice pieces Colin. Interestingly, on the hooked design, according to Ed's paper on the Kassala industry, this is known as a "soat'al" and was first made in 1916. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12845 (it's on page 42 of the PDF) Regards, Iain

7th July 2013, 11:56 AM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Thanks to Iain and Edster for their comments about these daggers. Unfortunately, no documentation came with them to completely verify their provenance. Regarding the second dagger shown with the dog-leg shaped blade; I agree it appears very unlikely this form was invented in 1916. In addition to the example cited by Edster, there is also a dagger very similar to mine, illustrated in one of W O Oldman's early sale catalogues, which he published in the years 1902 - 1914. Regards.

7th July 2013, 05:47 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Colin and Ed, Good to hear the 1916 can be disregarded. I always thought it a bit odd that such an iconic design was from that late a date.

7th July 2013, 08:46 PM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Continuing research often closes some doors and opens others. That's the fun of our field. The blade soat'al form has lasted a considerable period. But the grip/handle has evolved and perhaps the back-to-back "C" configuration was a modern innovation, perhaps at the time of the Eastern Camel Corps participation in the 1916 Ali Dinar Campaign, perhaps even later. It would be interesting to see soat'als from various periods. The C grip is held by the first and second fingers which allows better range of slashing motions than a conventional "fist" grip. See the post and period photographs below. Note that most of the Beja wear the old J shaped blade knife with its characteristic fist grip. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9991 Ed

7th July 2013, 09:00 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Geeeees this thread is missing Lew.

8th July 2013, 02:37 PM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi To move the discussion along a bit - I had always thought of these Sudanese knives with crooked or dog-leg blades, as being used only by Beja tribes from the Red Sea Hills. However, reading up on the Battle of Abu Klea, it seems Beja warriors were not present, and that the Mahdist forces were comprised mainly of tribes from Kordofan and others from the Nile Valley area. So bearing in mind Edster's observation about the hilt on my dagger, not being the Beja "double C", perhaps the crooked type of dagger form was used more widely in the Sudan than previously thought. There is also my earlier theory put forward about derivation from the Ancient Egyptian sword "khepesh" to bear in mind... Has anyone further ideas on this topic ? Regards.

8th July 2013, 10:42 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	These 'dog leg' blades have been discussed quite a few times over the years. Very much agreed Charles, Lew is deeply missed and especially in the daggers field where his knowledge was outstanding. I agree that this blade shape certainly comes from earlier periods and agree also that the profound influence of Egyptian forms seems to have survived in these type blades as well as other African weapons, as suggested by Colin. It is interesting that these examples however, seem to be mounted in the simple hilt form similar to Ethiopian 'shotels' and in varying degree with numerous other African hilt forms rather than the 'reversed C' pattern that is usually seen on these. While this does not dismiss the possibility of these blades having been mounted as is during these campaigns, it does make the attribution to Abu Klea a bit more tenuous. I am inclined to think that with the thriving souvenier trade, perhaps these authentic blades were mounted during the post campaign occupation and commemoratively inscribed. As for the tribal attribution for these distinctly shaped and angled blades, it would be extremely difficult to provenance them given the diffusion of these forms intertribally. Generally the Beja attribution may apply collectively as they seem to have been used by various tribes of this group, many who were indeed in campaigns in those times. On a side note regarding these reversed C hilts, does anyone else think they have a certain similarity to the Indian chilanum, the open hilt type of 'anthromorphic' form rather than knuckleguard type?

12th July 2013, 07:59 PM	#12
collectingspears Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Swaziland Posts: 6	For those interested in the Mahdist troops clothing I suggest the book Fire & Sword in Sudan by Rudolf Slatin a german who was held as a slave by the successor to the Mahdi, the Kalifa. If my memory services me well they wore patchwork shirt like clothing called a Jebba.

12th July 2013, 09:39 PM	#13
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Colin, I'd agree, collection labels and similar seem to have been popular at the time. I tend to think most of these are contemporary to the time the pieces were collected - the only caveat being if the new owner obtained it from a reputable source, or was sold it off a street corner in Cairo as an "authentic" Omdurman souvenir. I'm afraid my own collecting habits rarely tend towards events in the Sudan, so I don't have examples to show, but I think it's worth mentioning a lot of bring backs from military action were cataloged properly at the point of collection - for example the items in the Blair castle collection. All the best, Iain

14th July 2013, 07:36 PM	#16
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	I just acquired Go Strong Into The Desert The Mahdist Uprising in Sudan 1881-85 by Lt. Col. Mike Snook. It is an exceptional piece of research, detailing the political environment, battles, and particularly garments and armor; it is also very well illustrated. Available at www.perry-miniatures.com

16th July 2013, 07:53 PM	#19
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Iain, This book deals almost exclusively with the Sudanese and their allies. It offers good archival photographs and has detailed drawings, most of which are in color. Oliver

31st July 2013, 09:44 AM	#21
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	As an aside for anyone interested in form and design on ethnographic items. Was doing some reading up on Native American material, and find that the "double C" or "reversed C" form employed on some Beja dagger hilts, is also to be found on American Indian objects, particularly Woodlands area. Seems design forms often developed independently in different cultures...

10th September 2014, 12:19 AM	#24
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Hello Aleksey, Thanks for your observation. We students of ethnographic weapons are often faced with similar language terms used to identify the same type of weapons or the same or similar terms to identify different ones. The dog-leg blade knife, regardless of its origin and development is known as the soat'al by the Hadendawa ethnic group who traditionally live in both modern Sudan and in Ethiopia. Informants at the sword market in Kassala told me that the name Soat'al is a Hadendawa word for liver. It is said that one slice with the knife will cut a man to his liver. The name is said to have originated when the knife was thrown at a lion and severed its liver in two parts. The "Arabic" term of reference is Shotal and is virtually identical to the name of the Abyssian sickle sword discussed above. Regards, Ed

10th September 2014, 09:18 PM	#25
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Dear Ed, We need to compare the actual Fuzzy-Wuzzy knives in XIX century and modern knives. AFAIK they used straight knives in 1880th onwards. Then we shood seek for such knives in Museums of Sudan and ajacent countries as European collections could boast only the itrems of the end of XIX century. And at last we should understand what "shotel" means in Arabic language? Is it a word from classic Arabic language or is it being spread only among Sudanese Arabs? The Fuzzi-Wuzzy legend seems to be very modern and ethimologistic - to my mind they borrowed the thing alongside with the name and them "explained" the meaning by so called foulk ethimology. In any case I am glad to talk with you especially after getting acquainted with your notes about Kassala P.S. could you post the emblem of E.A.C. here?

11th September 2014, 10:15 AM	#26
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	I am awfully sorry - I forgot the attachement! So please find enclosed the mural painting from Ura Kidhane Mihret Monastery, Tana Lake, depicting the classic Ethiopian shotel: