The Kris Gets All The Glory ..

Rick · 7th July 2008, 05:36 PM

But the Kampilan wrote the story .

Discuss ?

Lew · 7th July 2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

But the Kampilan wrote the story .

Discuss ?

Rick

Can you please elaborate?

Lew

Rick · 7th July 2008, 06:28 PM

Lapu Lapu is shown with a Kampilan .

The sword of the Iranun pirates of Sulu .

The favored sword for combat in Mindanao; ornate ones often carried by a royal retainer in a retinue; stuff like that .

I'd rather go into a fight with a kampilan and or spear .
Kris as a back up .

Whatcha think ?

Lew · 7th July 2008, 06:49 PM

Rick

The kampilan has a single edge where a large battle kris is double edged and can cut either way. Another comparison is the viking long sax vs the viking double edged sword. Its all a matter of what your style of fighting is? Hack and chop kampilan vs cut and thrust battle kris the long straight bladed ones that is.

Lew

David · 7th July 2008, 06:57 PM

I dunno...I haven't handled too many kampilans, but the ones i have handled just didn't thrill me like the kris. The kris seems sturdier to me as well, doubled edged as mentioned, etc. And i like the way it handled better.
I would want to go into battle with the kris, and a nice barong as a back-up...

Rick · 7th July 2008, 08:30 PM

I think thery're both slashing weapons guys .

Kampilans have incredible tip speed; also properly made, the back edge can inflict a terrible wound .

They must have been a heck of a lot easier to produce than the kris .

Arming a war party ?
Much less labor to produce .

Try Kampilan for your next raid or ambush .

Lew · 7th July 2008, 08:40 PM

Rick

There seems to be so many more kris around than kampilan that in itself shows it was a more popular weapon. Kampilan are heavier and more awkward to swing and harder to recover than a kris and when used together with a shield a kris in my opinion would be the better of the two. Are kampilan blades pinned or anchored to the hilt as are the kris via the baca baca? If not the blade would be more prone to separating from the hilt after a many powerful blows against a shield or another weapon. I just find the kris more user friendly thats all

Rick neither the kris or kampilan are true slashing weapon they are really more cleave and shearing types. The tip of the kampilan might be able to open you up a bit but it's the sweet spot several inches behind the tip is where all the power of the blade is concentrated as is the kris. Plus the general shape of the kampilan tip would not lend itself to be good at penetrating armor or even non protected soft body parts the curl on the upper tip would get hung up on a rib or something.

Lew

mross · 7th July 2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Lapu Lapu is shown with a Kampilan .

The sword of the Iranun pirates of Sulu .

The favored sword for combat in Mindanao; ornate ones often carried by a royal retainer in a retinue; stuff like that .

I'd rather go into a fight with a kampilan and or spear .
Kris as a back up .

Whatcha think ?

Full aggrement, Magellan was killed with a KP. Most accounts of significant Moro kills are with the KP. I cannot recall a single significant battle that mentions the Kris.

Lew · 7th July 2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Full aggrement, Magellan was killed with a KP. Most accounts of significant Moro kills are with the KP. I cannot recall a single significant battle that mentions the Kris.

Kris as we know them today were not in use in 1521. Magellan was wounded in his sword arm by a bamboo spear so he was easy pickings.

Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger.

Scimitar? Sounds more like a large pira to me and not a kamiplan

Lew

kai · 8th July 2008, 03:48 AM

Hello Lew,

Quote:

There seems to be so many more kris around than kampilan that in itself shows it was a more popular weapon.

I don't think we have any unbiased sample to really estimate numbers of blades available. That being said, the kampilan is a typical campaign sword - you don't want to bother carrying it around all day in peace time...

One thing which may speak for the kris (or barong) though is that these are personal weapons representing the status, wealth and manhood of any Moro warrior: Thus, these blades are bound to have more lore associated with them than a war sword from a Datu's arsenal which gets handed out when shit hits the fan... Of course, also kampilan can acquire a "personality" for protecting the weilder, taking many lives during war, or by being utilized for executions.

Quote:

Kampilan are heavier and more awkward to swing and harder to recover than a kris and when used together with a shield a kris in my opinion would be the better of the two.

I don't think effectiveness can be evaluated without intricate knowledge of the traditional fighting styles (of the specific ethnic group in question). When going to war, some extra reach does come in handy though. BTW, I've always been amazed how light the kampilan blades are (considering their length).

Quote:

Are kampilan blades pinned or anchored to the hilt as are the kris via the baca baca? If not the blade would be more prone to separating from the hilt after a many powerful blows against a shield or another weapon. I just find the kris more user friendly thats all

If this really were the case, all blades would have been "secured" by extra means. That just about any blade from any culture throughout the Southeast Asian archipelago is of partial tang construction and set with resin should tell us something. (These folks were not dumb and better trained than just about any of us collectors...

)

Quote:

The tip of the kampilan might be able to open you up a bit but it's the sweet spot several inches behind the tip is where all the power of the blade is concentrated as is the kris. Plus the general shape of the kampilan tip would not lend itself to be good at penetrating armor or even non protected soft body parts the curl on the upper tip would get hung up on a rib or something.

Is this so? Bad design?

I'm with Rick: These blades deserve more attention than they are usually getting. I for one would love to see more old examples and possibly "missing links" which may be able to lessen the gap between the Moro kampilan and the other klewang from Indonesia (some of the swords with large pommel from the outer islands seem to be related but often fitted with trade blades).

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 8th July 2008, 07:28 PM

Armor was for the rich guys .
I'd expect warriors would have no more than a shield .

Against your average villager/slave raidee a most excellent sword; big and scary .
The Sulu Sultanate depended on slave labor .

The story is the history of the Moro peoples of the Philippines .

The kampilan is the pen .

mross · 8th July 2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Kris as we know them today were not in use in 1521. Magellan was wounded in his sword arm by a bamboo spear so he was easy pickings.

Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger.

Scimitar? Sounds more like a large pira to me and not a kamiplan

Lew

The resembles a scimitiar only being larger points to the KP. Granted I have not seen many Pira, but the ones I have seen tended to be smaller similiar to a navel cutlass rather then a scimitar only larger.

Rick · 8th July 2008, 08:09 PM

See Cato; pg. 48

Lew · 8th July 2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

See Cato; pg. 48

Don't have the book

Rick · 9th July 2008, 12:09 AM

Shown with Kampilan .

http://www.melovillareal.com/photobl...ent-luneta.jpg

http://www.psdtc.com/Pekiti.Tirsia/lapu.lapu.2.jpg

Lew · 9th July 2008, 06:31 AM

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCl1T6c8w4A

nacho · 10th July 2008, 04:39 AM

Lapu-lapu is often shown in statues holding a kampilan. I don't think from the accounts of the Magellan expedition survivors it is clear Lapu-lapu wielded a kampilan. He was from Cebu. Just thinking... perhaps he used a Visayan sword (tenegre?).

PenangsangII · 10th July 2008, 04:52 AM

If indeed Lapu-Lapu had used kampilan to kill Magellan, IMHO it doent deserve much recognition either because of the number of Spanish soldiers were too small comparatively, and were fighting in an unfamiliar territory for the first time

I think the later part of battles in the southern Philippines against the Moros whom were synonimous to kris (sundang in Malay) and barong deserved more attention - thus the much credit to the kris.

Reichsritter · 18th July 2008, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

But the Kampilan wrote the story .

Discuss ?

Hi, Because probably the Sultan wears a Kris as symbol of his power ? The 17th century rebellon in the Sultanate of Brunei was halted because the Sultante of Sulu sent warriors to help his cousin. These warriors of Sama and Tausug only carries Kris, Barung and Budjak.

7th July 2008, 05:36 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The Kris Gets All The Glory .. But the Kampilan wrote the story . Discuss ?

7th July 2008, 06:28 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	As A Combat Weapon Lapu Lapu is shown with a Kampilan . The sword of the Iranun pirates of Sulu . The favored sword for combat in Mindanao; ornate ones often carried by a royal retainer in a retinue; stuff like that . I'd rather go into a fight with a kampilan and or spear . Kris as a back up . Whatcha think ?

7th July 2008, 08:40 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Rick There seems to be so many more kris around than kampilan that in itself shows it was a more popular weapon. Kampilan are heavier and more awkward to swing and harder to recover than a kris and when used together with a shield a kris in my opinion would be the better of the two. Are kampilan blades pinned or anchored to the hilt as are the kris via the baca baca? If not the blade would be more prone to separating from the hilt after a many powerful blows against a shield or another weapon. I just find the kris more user friendly thats all Rick neither the kris or kampilan are true slashing weapon they are really more cleave and shearing types. The tip of the kampilan might be able to open you up a bit but it's the sweet spot several inches behind the tip is where all the power of the blade is concentrated as is the kris. Plus the general shape of the kampilan tip would not lend itself to be good at penetrating armor or even non protected soft body parts the curl on the upper tip would get hung up on a rib or something. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 7th July 2008 at 09:04 PM.

9th July 2008, 12:09 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Lapu Lapu Shown with Kampilan . http://www.melovillareal.com/photobl...ent-luneta.jpg http://www.psdtc.com/Pekiti.Tirsia/lapu.lapu.2.jpg

10th July 2008, 04:39 AM	#17
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	Lapu-lapu's kampilan Lapu-lapu is often shown in statues holding a kampilan. I don't think from the accounts of the Magellan expedition survivors it is clear Lapu-lapu wielded a kampilan. He was from Cebu. Just thinking... perhaps he used a Visayan sword (tenegre?).

7th July 2008, 06:49 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Rick The kampilan has a single edge where a large battle kris is double edged and can cut either way. Another comparison is the viking long sax vs the viking double edged sword. Its all a matter of what your style of fighting is? Hack and chop kampilan vs cut and thrust battle kris the long straight bladed ones that is. Lew

7th July 2008, 06:57 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I dunno...I haven't handled too many kampilans, but the ones i have handled just didn't thrill me like the kris. The kris seems sturdier to me as well, doubled edged as mentioned, etc. And i like the way it handled better. I would want to go into battle with the kris, and a nice barong as a back-up...

7th July 2008, 08:30 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think thery're both slashing weapons guys . Kampilans have incredible tip speed; also properly made, the back edge can inflict a terrible wound . They must have been a heck of a lot easier to produce than the kris . Arming a war party ? Much less labor to produce . Try Kampilan for your next raid or ambush .

8th July 2008, 07:28 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Armor was for the rich guys . I'd expect warriors would have no more than a shield . Against your average villager/slave raidee a most excellent sword; big and scary . The Sulu Sultanate depended on slave labor . The story is the history of the Moro peoples of the Philippines . The kampilan is the pen .

8th July 2008, 08:09 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	See Cato; pg. 48

9th July 2008, 06:31 AM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCl1T6c8w4A

10th July 2008, 04:52 AM	#18
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	If indeed Lapu-Lapu had used kampilan to kill Magellan, IMHO it doent deserve much recognition either because of the number of Spanish soldiers were too small comparatively, and were fighting in an unfamiliar territory for the first time I think the later part of battles in the southern Philippines against the Moros whom were synonimous to kris (sundang in Malay) and barong deserved more attention - thus the much credit to the kris.