Noptes: Polish Batorowka & Zygmuntowka sabres

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:29 AM

This thread is a result of Radu’s article: Notes on development of modern sabers, which is now one of the most popular on this forum (congratulation Radu!). While the discussion goes to the earlier times, when the sabres were born, I would like to stay a while longer by “gold era” of Polish history – in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries, and introduce some facts about one of the most popular dedicated sabres: Batorowkas

The name of this sabres come from the king Stefan Batory, which was elected in 1576 and quickly became known as a great leader and very popular man.

For many years there was existing conviction that sabres called like that were property of the king. Of course it became obvious that there are too many sabres with Batory’s name, to accept this theory as probably. Before the II WW, Polish arms historians called as Batorowka all the sabres of Hungarian-Polish type – so every sabre with classic boot-like pommel, with cross-guard and open hilt. It changed just after the war, when knowledge about sabres became established. So nowadays we can call “Batorowka” only a sabre which bears the name, bust or imagination of king Batory, no matter from what period, and of what type this sabre is.

There are two theories, when the Batorowkas appeared. The first one says it was during the rule of the king, when his victories and successful politics made him very popular among the noblemen. The second one, I think more probably and actually accepted, says they were produced just after the death of the king (1586 y.). Then the noblemen who put mourning after the king, started to wear batorowkas sabres, while another noblemen, celebrating election of the new king (Zygmunt III Waza – Sigismundus Wasa, from Sweden), started to wear sabres Zygmuntowkas.

Bacause of their popularity, Batorowkas were produced even in the 18th century. As a curiosity, I can tell there was even an Italian craftsman, Jan Hieronim Caccia, who lived in Warsaw, and produced batorowkas – unfortunately we don’t know how do they looked like. There is an interesting problem with it. Can we call 18th century batorowkas as a fakes? There is no doubt, I think, some of them could be produced as 16th or 17th century weapon. In 19th century, when Poland loose independence, during romantic and historical period, Batorowkas became popular once more. But of course these sabres are rather less interesting and very often made of poor materials.

Photographs:

Photo 1: King Stefan Batory himself, painting from 16th century;
Photo 2: King Stefan Batory in the later painting of Polish famous historical painter – Jan Matejko (19th century), “Batory at Pskov” – fragment. King’s armour, depicted on painting is now preserved in Hofjagd und Rustkammer Museum in Wien;
Photo 3: Stefan Batory’s sabre (not Batorowka), now in Polish Army Museum in Warsaw;
Photo 4: Batorowka sabre, at least – and by the way classic hussars sabre, National Museum in Krakow;
Photo 5: …and closeup of the same sabre – “Stefanus Batori * Rex Poloniae *”;
Photo 6: Another Batorowka sabre with classic hussars sabre hilt, from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw;
Photo 7: Blade of Batorowka sabre;
Photo 8: Sketches from the blade of Batorowka sabre, late 16th century;
Photo 9: Another blade of Batorowka sabre…;
Photo 10, 11: Two Batorowkas probably from the same workshop, middle of 18th century. King Stefan Batory lost his personableness and looks more like dwarf – just a thought

and Zymgmuntowkas:
Photo 12: King Zygmunt III himself, king of Poland from 1587 y.;
Photo 13: Fragment of Zygmuntowka sabre from National Museum in Krakow – it’s a fishy thing. No doubt it’s not a fake. But take a look at date: 1526 – it’s a date of election of Zygmunt II August, not Zygmunt III Waza. Interesting thing that date is visible on many others sabres called Zygmuntowka, so there appeared even a theory telling this sabres were made during the rule of Zygmunt I Stary (Sigismund I The Old – lived 1467-1546) or Zygmunt II August (lived 1520-1572), what cannot be true, I think;
Photo 14, 15, 16: Examples of Zygmuntowkas blades and sabres;

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:32 AM

next part of photos

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:34 AM

greetings

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:37 AM

Oops, now after posting I find this pictures a little to big for comfortably viewing. If you'll have a problem with this, try to right click and save them on hard drive, and next open in any program and any size you want to.

Best regards!

Rather · 27th January 2005, 11:54 AM

Thank you, Wolviex! Impressive pictures and most interesting article. Are there any of the mentioned weapons on display in the museum in Krakow? I am regularly visiting this most beautiful city 3 to 4 times a year, as I am doing business with the chemical factory in Oswiecim, but have never been in the National Museum. Hope to have time to visit it on next occasion.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 01:25 PM

I'm seeing "blind"/"stub" tangs; were the buttcaps on with nails? I'm interested in the extremely long lagnets on the king's actual sword. Interesting pic of the handling of a drawn sword.

Rivkin · 27th January 2005, 04:26 PM

wow, thank you very much.

ariel · 28th January 2005, 01:06 AM

Wolviex,
Any particular reason to omit the Janowka?

Just joking. Very good thread.
Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 04:56 AM

What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

wolviex · 28th January 2005, 10:54 AM

Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough

You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs.
"Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception.

Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting.
About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting

(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt.

RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you

My email is at your's disposal.

Rather · 28th January 2005, 02:25 PM

Wolviex, thank you for your generous offer!

I really hope to find the time to see you during my next stay and look forward to be privileged to visit the Arms and Armour collection in your museum. It might be April /May, before I have a chance to come to Krakow the next time, but I will for sure send an e-mail to you well in advance.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 04:53 PM

Hmmm; I'm totally disinterested in kings and their pictures and such to tell you the truth; I'm talking about the swords, and of pretty much all being of the same general type; about the knucklebow interlocking with the pommel/buttcap (these are unweighted, yes? Thus not pommels per se; we all get pretty sloppy with that usage, though; it's such a useful word we've expanded its meaning. As a child I would sometimes read pages out of my father's giant Webster lectern-size dictionary, and somewhere in that dang book is a word for a hook for your fingers carved at the end of a handle, not added as a seperate piece like a buttcap or pommel; it's in there, I tells ye (his eyes blaze into the distance, and he clutches some deadly thing with a white-knuckled death-grip....). I think I see a rudimentary form of the commonly seen interlock here; I think its form is intrinsically coming from interlocking with a buttcap rather than a pommel. The Western ones I'd mentioned are knucklebows with flattened ends, pierced for a screw. The end lays against the front side of the weighted pommel, which acts as the nut for a threaded screw attaching the two. I'll see if the pics on that other post are salutary to this concept. I am liable to talk about sabres in your kings thread though; I'm liable to talk about daitos in it, or parang naburs!

Whereever something that seems important comes up, I'm likely to bring it up; such is the mind of Tom.

wolviex · 28th January 2005, 06:06 PM

Tom: it seems that my mind is not such powerful as yours

. Now, when I get through the pages of English-Polish dictionary, I begining to understant what is your point. The construction of European weapon you're writing about is visible in 17th century, in example on small-swords, some rapiers and others edged weapons, isn't it? If so, I think you're right about influences of Polish sabre on modern European sabres, which appeared widely in 18th century, but didn't we discussed it at Radu's thread before? (about sabres development). Anyway, I think that classic Polish hussars sabre could have great influence on modern sabres. But it was just resultant of many eastern, Polish and western European influences, I think...
...or I'm still erroneous in essentia ...

Regards

tom hyle · 29th January 2005, 12:02 AM

That's pretty much what I was thinking about; I'm not sure this particular point was covered in depth in the other thread; maybe I forgot.....

wolviex · 30th January 2005, 10:28 PM

Tom I think you're right that we didn't discuss a problem of influences of Polish sabres on development of modern european sabres hilts on previous threads. Anyway here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=108 at the bottom of a page is a diagram where you can clearer see how the development of sabres in Europe took place - more or less probably. But of course I don't mind if we dig it deeper just right here on this thread - more, I'll be even very happy

.
Best regards

27th January 2005, 07:29 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Notes: Polish Batorowka & Zygmuntowka sabres This thread is a result of Radu’s article: Notes on development of modern sabers, which is now one of the most popular on this forum (congratulation Radu!). While the discussion goes to the earlier times, when the sabres were born, I would like to stay a while longer by “gold era” of Polish history – in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries, and introduce some facts about one of the most popular dedicated sabres: Batorowkas The name of this sabres come from the king Stefan Batory, which was elected in 1576 and quickly became known as a great leader and very popular man. For many years there was existing conviction that sabres called like that were property of the king. Of course it became obvious that there are too many sabres with Batory’s name, to accept this theory as probably. Before the II WW, Polish arms historians called as Batorowka all the sabres of Hungarian-Polish type – so every sabre with classic boot-like pommel, with cross-guard and open hilt. It changed just after the war, when knowledge about sabres became established. So nowadays we can call “Batorowka” only a sabre which bears the name, bust or imagination of king Batory, no matter from what period, and of what type this sabre is. There are two theories, when the Batorowkas appeared. The first one says it was during the rule of the king, when his victories and successful politics made him very popular among the noblemen. The second one, I think more probably and actually accepted, says they were produced just after the death of the king (1586 y.). Then the noblemen who put mourning after the king, started to wear batorowkas sabres, while another noblemen, celebrating election of the new king (Zygmunt III Waza – Sigismundus Wasa, from Sweden), started to wear sabres Zygmuntowkas. Bacause of their popularity, Batorowkas were produced even in the 18th century. As a curiosity, I can tell there was even an Italian craftsman, Jan Hieronim Caccia, who lived in Warsaw, and produced batorowkas – unfortunately we don’t know how do they looked like. There is an interesting problem with it. Can we call 18th century batorowkas as a fakes? There is no doubt, I think, some of them could be produced as 16th or 17th century weapon. In 19th century, when Poland loose independence, during romantic and historical period, Batorowkas became popular once more. But of course these sabres are rather less interesting and very often made of poor materials. Photographs: Photo 1: King Stefan Batory himself, painting from 16th century; Photo 2: King Stefan Batory in the later painting of Polish famous historical painter – Jan Matejko (19th century), “Batory at Pskov” – fragment. King’s armour, depicted on painting is now preserved in Hofjagd und Rustkammer Museum in Wien; Photo 3: Stefan Batory’s sabre (not Batorowka), now in Polish Army Museum in Warsaw; Photo 4: Batorowka sabre, at least – and by the way classic hussars sabre, National Museum in Krakow; Photo 5: …and closeup of the same sabre – “Stefanus Batori * Rex Poloniae ”; Photo 6: Another Batorowka sabre with classic hussars sabre hilt, from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw; Photo 7: Blade of Batorowka sabre; Photo 8: Sketches from the blade of Batorowka sabre, late 16th century; Photo 9: Another blade of Batorowka sabre…; Photo 10, 11: Two Batorowkas probably from the same workshop, middle of 18th century. King Stefan Batory lost his personableness and looks more like dwarf – just a thought and Zymgmuntowkas: Photo 12: King Zygmunt III himself, king of Poland from 1587 y.; Photo 13: Fragment of Zygmuntowka sabre from National Museum in Krakow – it’s a fishy thing. No doubt it’s not a fake. But take a look at date: 1526 – it’s a date of election of Zygmunt II August, not Zygmunt III Waza. Interesting thing that date is visible on many others sabres called Zygmuntowka, so there appeared even a theory telling this sabres were made during the rule of Zygmunt I Stary (Sigismund I The Old – lived 1467-1546) or Zygmunt II August (lived 1520-1572), what cannot be true, I think; Photo 14, 15, 16: Examples of Zygmuntowkas blades and sabres; Attached Images Last edited by wolviex; 27th January 2005 at 04:13 PM.*

27th January 2005, 07:32 AM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	next part of photos Attached Images

27th January 2005, 07:34 AM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	greetings Attached Images

27th January 2005, 07:37 AM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Oops Oops, now after posting I find this pictures a little to big for comfortably viewing. If you'll have a problem with this, try to right click and save them on hard drive, and next open in any program and any size you want to. Best regards!

27th January 2005, 11:54 AM	#5
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Thank you, Wolviex! Impressive pictures and most interesting article. Are there any of the mentioned weapons on display in the museum in Krakow? I am regularly visiting this most beautiful city 3 to 4 times a year, as I am doing business with the chemical factory in Oswiecim, but have never been in the National Museum. Hope to have time to visit it on next occasion.

27th January 2005, 01:25 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm seeing "blind"/"stub" tangs; were the buttcaps on with nails? I'm interested in the extremely long lagnets on the king's actual sword. Interesting pic of the handling of a drawn sword.

27th January 2005, 04:26 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	wow, thank you very much.

28th January 2005, 01:06 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wolviex, Any particular reason to omit the Janowka? Just joking. Very good thread. Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

28th January 2005, 04:56 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

28th January 2005, 10:54 AM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs. "Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception. Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting. About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt. RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you My email is at your's disposal.

28th January 2005, 02:25 PM	#11
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Wolviex, thank you for your generous offer! I really hope to find the time to see you during my next stay and look forward to be privileged to visit the Arms and Armour collection in your museum. It might be April /May, before I have a chance to come to Krakow the next time, but I will for sure send an e-mail to you well in advance.

28th January 2005, 04:53 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmm; I'm totally disinterested in kings and their pictures and such to tell you the truth; I'm talking about the swords, and of pretty much all being of the same general type; about the knucklebow interlocking with the pommel/buttcap (these are unweighted, yes? Thus not pommels per se; we all get pretty sloppy with that usage, though; it's such a useful word we've expanded its meaning. As a child I would sometimes read pages out of my father's giant Webster lectern-size dictionary, and somewhere in that dang book is a word for a hook for your fingers carved at the end of a handle, not added as a seperate piece like a buttcap or pommel; it's in there, I tells ye (his eyes blaze into the distance, and he clutches some deadly thing with a white-knuckled death-grip....). I think I see a rudimentary form of the commonly seen interlock here; I think its form is intrinsically coming from interlocking with a buttcap rather than a pommel. The Western ones I'd mentioned are knucklebows with flattened ends, pierced for a screw. The end lays against the front side of the weighted pommel, which acts as the nut for a threaded screw attaching the two. I'll see if the pics on that other post are salutary to this concept. I am liable to talk about sabres in your kings thread though; I'm liable to talk about daitos in it, or parang naburs! Whereever something that seems important comes up, I'm likely to bring it up; such is the mind of Tom.

28th January 2005, 06:06 PM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Tom: it seems that my mind is not such powerful as yours . Now, when I get through the pages of English-Polish dictionary, I begining to understant what is your point. The construction of European weapon you're writing about is visible in 17th century, in example on small-swords, some rapiers and others edged weapons, isn't it? If so, I think you're right about influences of Polish sabre on modern European sabres, which appeared widely in 18th century, but didn't we discussed it at Radu's thread before? (about sabres development). Anyway, I think that classic Polish hussars sabre could have great influence on modern sabres. But it was just resultant of many eastern, Polish and western European influences, I think... ...or I'm still erroneous in essentia ... Regards

29th January 2005, 12:02 AM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That's pretty much what I was thinking about; I'm not sure this particular point was covered in depth in the other thread; maybe I forgot.....

30th January 2005, 10:28 PM	#15
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Tom I think you're right that we didn't discuss a problem of influences of Polish sabres on development of modern european sabres hilts on previous threads. Anyway here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=108 at the bottom of a page is a diagram where you can clearer see how the development of sabres in Europe took place - more or less probably. But of course I don't mind if we dig it deeper just right here on this thread - more, I'll be even very happy . Best regards