Dating the Schiavons sword

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I am trying to put together a rough dating chart for Schiavona Swords. Like many of us I keep a data base of examples that come up at auction however the dating is often just c1600, which given the length of time these swords were around rarely accurate. For this exercise I am ignoring the dates attributed to blades and just concentrating on Guard construction.

This is what I have put together thus far, based on my library and Oakeshott of course. I understand that this is not even close to covering the variations out there, but have just picked those that appear to show the progressive complication of the baskets.

Any help with dating or validating this chart would be most appreciated.

I am currently working on an article to cover the Schiavona and its use, so I thought I would start with a simple way of attributing the evolution and re-dating more accurately those examples already in my data base.

Also, if anyone has a copy of Jean Binck had also penned a short article back in 2003, I would be most grateful as I seem to have misplaced my copy and every link I find to it I have been unable to download

Cheers Cathey

[Hotspur]

I don't have a link handy for the Jean Binck article bit here is one by Nathan Robinson.
http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

Here through the wayback machine
http://web.archive.org/web/201810241.../schiavona.htm

[Cathey]

Thankyou Hotspur, much appreciated. I have also just found an article Jean sent me many years ago before we lost touch in French by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard. It is interesting, this is the first article that talks about the different scabbards.

Do you have any comments with regard to the dating chart, it is pretty much a best guess at this stage, I am hoping as I follow up references, I might be able to nail down the developmental stages. I will keep posting updates on my early research. I am surprised no one else has replied if only to criticise the assumptions in my chart.

Cheers Cathey.

[Cathey]

As a result of reading a french article by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard, I have revised my chart and brought it down to 8 patterns (or groups) becoming progressively more complex. Ending with the last and most complex of what Martin describes as the fishnet guards.

I understand that this does not cover ever variation but hope that I can use this as a method of grouping available examples and to try and create an easier chronology for collectors, particuarly new collector to follow.

As this chart represents the preparation work for an article on the Schiavona, I would be grateful for any assistance and advice.

I have patterns 2,4 and 8 in my collection and access to a pattern 5, I am still looking to secure patterns 1,3, 6 and 7. However, finding these swords when you live in Australia is challenging.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

I’m not familiar with the Ehretsmann articles, and it seems many in the forum aren’t either, so perhaps you can be so kind and share them with the forum?

In The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (2012) the author Goran Borčić distinguishes between schiavonas with skeleton and lattice hilt baskets which makes sense. He mentions the oldest known record of the spada schiavonesca in a testament from Dubrovnik (Ragusa) dating from 1391.

Citing a number of sources including Marija Sercer (Macevi schiavone Povijesnog muzeja Hrvatske, 1972), A. Cimarelli (Armi Bianche, 1969), Heribert Seitz (1965), etc he provides approximate dating for schiavona swords. The earliest skeleton hilt swords are from 1H to mid 16thC, those with heartshaped sidebars dating from 1600-1640, and the ones with more decorated sidebars from 17th-18thC. The lattice hilt schiavonas date from as early as 2H 16thC with single layer side bar items from 1H 17thC (more decorative ones 17thC to beginning 18thC), double layer side bars from 17thC, and triple layer side bars versions from 17th-18thC. It seems schiavona swords continued in use by city guards on the Dalmatian coast into the 19thC. I think dating the swords is difficult in that they each seem quite unique (not standardised or regulation issue), and Ewart Oakeshott in his book European Weapons and Armour suggests different styles may have been in use concurrently.

[Victrix]

Found a link to the book by Marija Sercer but it’s in Serbo-Croat and not many pictures unfortunately: https://www.hismus.hr/media/document...oževi.pdf Needs lots of use of Dr. “Google” translation to get much useful info out of it But the author seems to have been a scholarly lady, the more so given that the book was published during the communist time of Yugoslavia.

[Cathey]

Thankyou Victrix,

Here is the link to the Ehretsmann article, its in French so I have had to use Google translate which given this is an old photocopy is less than successful

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JfB...usp=share_link

Thankyou also for the link to the book by Marija Sercer, I think this will be most useful. I agree dating can only indicative as there does appear to be cross over between the variations and of course if we take blades into account, it becomes even more murky. Based on what I have found thus far I think the chart will be helpful if only as an order to address these in based on hilt complexity. I have Oakeshott as well which I do tend to rely on and a number of other references in other languages.

I am hoping some more recent papers might surface like the book by Marija that I have certainly never seen before. I think I prefer the term Lattice to fishnet when it comes to the latter hilts.

I just find the Schiavone so interesting because of the number of variations.


Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Many thanks for the link to the French article, Cathey. It looks very good.

I can recommend The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić which I picked up by chance when on vacation in Split. It has text on arms and armour in both Croatian and English, but the item descriptions at the end are in Croatian only although detailed with beautiful pictures. It also has sections on local yatagans, polearms, firearms, etc. See picture below for an example of a skeleton schiavona with decorated sidebars which he dates to 17-18thC. It seems the more plain the schiavonas the older they tend to be. The book is quite big and heavy so will cost a bit to send by post.

I wish all forum members a Happy New Year 2023!

[Cathey]

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

That’s a fabulous sword, Cathey! I think the plain iron pommels are also an indication of age. It seems the bronze ones with relief patterns and “cat’s ears” came later.

As I mentioned earlier, I obtained my copy of “The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum” (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić by chance when visiting the City of Split Museum on vacation (highly recommended!). Roman Emperor Diocletian retired to Split where he built a walled palace for himself. The old town of Split is built into the ruins of this palace and you can stay in hotels within the ancient palace walls. You could try to contact the museum to see if they still have copies of this publication for sale: https://www.mgs.hr/ and email muzej.grada.splita@mgst.net. Bear in mind that this is a substantial coffee table book and postage fees will likely be substantial. See some photos enclosed on the section covering schiavonas.

[urbanspaceman]

Probably my favourite sword and one I have yet to acquire.
Here are two examples purely for entertainment.
The first one (lattice basket) was auctioned by Czerny last year but was too expensive for my wallet.
The second one is still for sale but you would need to re-mortgage your house to afford it.

[urbanspaceman]

Here is a part of the vendor's description of this spectacular sword and some more photos.

The basket hilt is encrusted in silver, the massive pommel is also silver and decorated with a figure of a noble - perhaps the original owner that commissioned the creation of this masterpiece. The lower hilt is most interesting in that it has a silver guard and original rain-guard built into the tang. The sheath is decorated in leather and pierced silver moulding, and silver extended chape.

[urbanspaceman]

Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

[urbanspaceman]

Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread.
Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook.
Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm raising more questions I'm afraid.
First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel?
Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

[Cathey]

Hi Urbanspaceman

I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate.

With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips.

My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian.

Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström.

[Cathey]

Hi Victrix

I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade.

Cheers Cathey

[urbanspaceman]

Take a careful look at this image below:
there is no pixelation on any of the hilt.
The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures.
I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees.

[urbanspaceman]

Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700.
Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp?
Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade?
Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords.
It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c.

The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo.

The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily.
Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century.

This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted.

I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel.

[urbanspaceman]

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

[Cathey]

Hi Jim,

I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

[urbanspaceman]

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work.

While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm.

The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others.
Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual.

By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts.
As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian).
These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence.

The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara).

[Victrix]

Yes, I think Jim is absolutely right on the Schiavona blades.

I read somewhere that many skeleton hilt type schiavonas are found in the Armoury in Venice, but not the type with lattice hilt baskets which are mostly found in Dalmatia. Maybe the schiavonas started as skeleton hilts used by Slavonian mercenaries in Venice, who then continued the tradition in their homeland on the Eastern shore of the Adriatic which developed into lattice hilts over time with fashion? Allegedly schiavonas were also swirled around as part of a martial dance at festivals in Dalmatia, so very much became part of the local culture.

Some schiavonas were probably locally hilted in Dalmatia, and boats were known to travel up and down the coast selling trade blades for this purpose. I think schiavonas are found with blades from just about everywhere. What’s special about them is the hilt with the characteristic basket and pommel. And we mustn’t forget the thumb ring which is interesting as it made it an effective slashing as well as thrusting sword. They are very much meant for business.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems most I have ever read regarding evolution of the distinctive schiavona hilt suggests they evolved primarily from Hungarian/Croatian swords with the familiar S-guards seen in the landsknecht type 'katzbalgers' and other such fighting swords of 16th-17th c.

It is tempting to associate the 'cats head' pommel with the cat simile (=vicious fighting) of katzbalger, though clearly this is simply a suggestion.

The Hungarians, Croatians and Venice seem to have been aligned in diplomatic arrangements from the 16th c. onward, though I am unclear on these details.

The so called 'skeleton' type hilts which resemble rib cage I think were termed squelette in French and referred to rapiers with these complex hilts.
I have not seen the examples in Venice of these, but it seems they were well established as a rapier hilt form contemporary to the swept hilt.

It would seem that the lattice type hilt evolved much in the manner of the rapier hilt in Italy which simply added elements of bars and rings for hand protection, but seem to have evolved somewhat gradually. The Italian arms makers were known for innovation and very much set the pace for arms and armor in these periods.

I think such evolution of the schiavona hilt most likely evolved in Italian context with the Dalmatian swords having their innovation added from early times in 16th c. in accord with other Italian sword development.
The lattice style is unique, and it is hard to determine what influence might have promoted it.
The basket type hilts of forms of dusagge and such fighting swords of North Europe and Germany may well have influenced the hilt design.

It was once thought that the Scottish basket hilt developed from the influence of the schiavona, but these seem to have evolved from the same European developing of the baskets on these swords.
The schiavona seems to have been in its developed form by end of the 16th c.

[Victrix]

Thank you for that Jim. Interesting with some added depth to the origins of skeleton and lattice hilt baskets. I think the “cat’s head” pommel of the schiavona refers to the “ears” protruding from the upper corners of the pommel, rather than the katzbalger (“catbrawl”) swords of medieval times. This is believed to be a stylistic representation of the Lion of St.Mark which was the symbol of Venice (Lion is a large cat animal).