Tulwar Durability

A.alnakkas · 11th April 2011, 11:53 AM

Hello Lads,

I was examining my tulwars today and thought about the durability of the hilts. There are no rivets and the blade is held by resin, Seems to me that it would fail after extensive combat?

Also, why are they made so uncomfortable? perhaps there is a style which makes use of the disk pommel but to me it looks more of a hinderance rather then anything else.

Its strange considering the military history of that part of the world.

Emanuel · 11th April 2011, 06:21 PM

Hi Abdulallatif,

It seems this questions comes back up for discussion every once in a while

The handle setting part was fairly well addressed. The pitch or other resin-type glue - see the glue thread for a variety of recipes - holds well enough and is easily dismantled. I suppose it does dry out eventually, but regular maintenance of the weapon would probably give ample indication when it needed replacement.

The disk pommel has also come up before. Among the tulwars I own, those with sufficiently-large handle to fit my hand do not pose problems. I actually find the pommel snug and quite comfortable, it stays locked in my hand and can't slide out. This design was used for centuries so it must have been adequate within the styles of combat used. Check out Shastar-Vidiya and Gatka videos for an indication of how the tulwar might have been used.

Tulwars are some of my favourite swords, I live the overall design and the handle/pommel disk is a major component of that.

All the best,
Emanuel

Atlantia · 11th April 2011, 09:10 PM

The resin that holds tulwar hilts on is actually rather good at its job!
Solid with just a little flex, strong, lasts indefinately and acts as a good shock absorber.
Easy to repair, easy to replace, easy to swap out blades, secure and concealed in the hilt......

As for the fencing style of the Tulwar....
There are undoubtedly significant differences in the fencing techniques of a 'shamhir' or European Sabre type hilt and a narrow wide disk Tulwar hilt.
These are clear whenever we see anyone practicing with a tulwar:

Tulwar moves - single sword.

Tulwar moves 2 swords

When we think of the grip for instance, the sabre hilt allows for a 'looser' more variable 'fluid' grip, whereas the tulwar hilt needs a more constant firm grip. Consequently there is also a significant difference in the range of available wrist movement which would affect the technique, making the cuts more 'pull' than 'push'.
I've tried to illustrate the problems in thinking about fencing with a tulwar in terms of 'european' type sabre moves with a few pictures showing the difficulties of a full lunge with a tulwar:

Atlantia · 11th April 2011, 09:41 PM

Also, remember how 'impressed' the British were by the wounds inflicted by Tulwars!

Gavin Nugent · 12th April 2011, 01:36 AM

I guess there are several manufacture methods for the tulwar hilt.

I have noticed the stick tang in the resin but I have also noted full partial tang within resin to, the tang end being peened over and forming part of the ball seen to the pommel.

Both have an amazing resisitance to the stresses and shocks of combat.

I did seek further input on the subject of hilt manufacture some time back but no one ran with it, another of those too hard questions I guess, I do ask a lot of those

I noted with some exploration of the hilt type available to me that they are made up of approx 12 pieces of formed steel. It is the order of construction that still holds an interest for me and in the instances of the full partial tang, more so.

Gav

kronckew · 12th April 2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Also, remember how 'impressed' the British were by the wounds inflicted by Tulwars!

they found out those impressive wounds were caused by the indians having rehilted surplus british 1796 light cav. sabres - which had been issued to the sepoys before the revolt, main diff. was the indians actually sharpened them (and knew how to use a curved sabre). the brits had by then gone with the more 'modern' straight swords that were basicaly dull as a butter knife from drills with a metal scabbard.

the french also were 'impressed' by the 1796LC sword when wellington's troops used it in spain, complaining about it's horrible wounds. those British officers who thought they knew better, shortly after had their troopers 'spearpoint' the blades & latter issue sabres/swords got progresively straighter as the ossifer class decided a thrust was better than a cut. that of course has been discussed ad nauseum. (i personally think the disabling cut was better than the killing thrust, as it takes more resources and manpower to look after a wounded man than a dead one. a better strategic result)

Atlantia · 12th April 2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

they found out those impressive wounds were caused by the indians having rehilted surplus british 1796 light cav. sabres - which had been issued to the sepoys before the revolt, main diff. was the indians actually sharpened them (and knew how to use a curved sabre). the brits had by then gone with the more 'modern' straight swords that were basicaly dull as a butter knife from drills with a metal scabbard.

the french also were 'impressed' by the 1796LC sword when wellington's troops used it in spain, complaining about it's horrible wounds. those British officers who thought they knew better, shortly after had their troopers 'spearpoint' the blades & latter issue sabres/swords got progresively straighter as the ossifer class decided a thrust was better than a cut. that of course has been discussed ad nauseum. (i personally think the disabling cut was better than the killing thrust, as it takes more resources and manpower to look after a wounded man than a dead one. a better strategic result)

Excellent points!

As you say the discussion on effectiveness of sword types is a well trodden path.
The battle effectiveness of the 'slash' or cut from a curved blade is indeed in the debilitating nature of the injury not the speed at which it causes death.
A thrust may cause any number of fatal wounds but still allow the victim to fight on for precious moments, or even minutes. A slash or long cut may lack depth but be immediately debilitating, removing the victim from combat, tieing up valuable resources in treatment etc.

A.alnakkas · 12th April 2011, 03:36 PM

Awesome fella's thanks for the info. These tulwars are really interesting works of art. I think tulwar hilts and Tsuba's can be collected alone without blades just out of sheer beauty.

About LC 1796, i have this idea running through my mind for a while now about getting 3 LC 1796 blades and rehilting them in Syrian, Saudi and Persian styles with respective scabbards. Either LC 1796 or indian blades since those were favoured by arabs of old. You guys think its a good idea? will probably be exhausting since i have to travel to syria but Dom have done me lots of help by giving me the number + email of a syrian bladesmith!

11th April 2011, 11:53 AM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Tulwar Durability Hello Lads, I was examining my tulwars today and thought about the durability of the hilts. There are no rivets and the blade is held by resin, Seems to me that it would fail after extensive combat? Also, why are they made so uncomfortable? perhaps there is a style which makes use of the disk pommel but to me it looks more of a hinderance rather then anything else. Its strange considering the military history of that part of the world.

11th April 2011, 09:10 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The resin that holds tulwar hilts on is actually rather good at its job! Solid with just a little flex, strong, lasts indefinately and acts as a good shock absorber. Easy to repair, easy to replace, easy to swap out blades, secure and concealed in the hilt...... As for the fencing style of the Tulwar.... There are undoubtedly significant differences in the fencing techniques of a 'shamhir' or European Sabre type hilt and a narrow wide disk Tulwar hilt. These are clear whenever we see anyone practicing with a tulwar: Tulwar moves - single sword. Tulwar moves 2 swords When we think of the grip for instance, the sabre hilt allows for a 'looser' more variable 'fluid' grip, whereas the tulwar hilt needs a more constant firm grip. Consequently there is also a significant difference in the range of available wrist movement which would affect the technique, making the cuts more 'pull' than 'push'. I've tried to illustrate the problems in thinking about fencing with a tulwar in terms of 'european' type sabre moves with a few pictures showing the difficulties of a full lunge with a tulwar: Attached Images

12th April 2011, 01:36 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	manufacture I guess there are several manufacture methods for the tulwar hilt. I have noticed the stick tang in the resin but I have also noted full partial tang within resin to, the tang end being peened over and forming part of the ball seen to the pommel. Both have an amazing resisitance to the stresses and shocks of combat. I did seek further input on the subject of hilt manufacture some time back but no one ran with it, another of those too hard questions I guess, I do ask a lot of those I noted with some exploration of the hilt type available to me that they are made up of approx 12 pieces of formed steel. It is the order of construction that still holds an interest for me and in the instances of the full partial tang, more so. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 12th April 2011 at 11:00 AM.

11th April 2011, 06:21 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Abdulallatif, It seems this questions comes back up for discussion every once in a while The handle setting part was fairly well addressed. The pitch or other resin-type glue - see the glue thread for a variety of recipes - holds well enough and is easily dismantled. I suppose it does dry out eventually, but regular maintenance of the weapon would probably give ample indication when it needed replacement. The disk pommel has also come up before. Among the tulwars I own, those with sufficiently-large handle to fit my hand do not pose problems. I actually find the pommel snug and quite comfortable, it stays locked in my hand and can't slide out. This design was used for centuries so it must have been adequate within the styles of combat used. Check out Shastar-Vidiya and Gatka videos for an indication of how the tulwar might have been used. Tulwars are some of my favourite swords, I live the overall design and the handle/pommel disk is a major component of that. All the best, Emanuel

11th April 2011, 09:41 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Also, remember how 'impressed' the British were by the wounds inflicted by Tulwars!

12th April 2011, 03:36 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Awesome fella's thanks for the info. These tulwars are really interesting works of art. I think tulwar hilts and Tsuba's can be collected alone without blades just out of sheer beauty. About LC 1796, i have this idea running through my mind for a while now about getting 3 LC 1796 blades and rehilting them in Syrian, Saudi and Persian styles with respective scabbards. Either LC 1796 or indian blades since those were favoured by arabs of old. You guys think its a good idea? will probably be exhausting since i have to travel to syria but Dom have done me lots of help by giving me the number + email of a syrian bladesmith!