NIMCHA WITH EUROPEAN BLADE????

ilias · 11th December 2009, 08:09 PM

Hi everyone.
I have just aquired this nimcha.It is not quite my field so I want your advice about the blade.Can be possibly be a trade European blade ? or a custom made one.?It has some marks on it which I cannot identify.
Is it possible to be an 18th c. one?
Thanks in advance for the help.
All the best
Ilias

Mauro · 12th December 2009, 01:52 AM

quite lucky with your nimcha. In my opinion it is a XVII-XVIII century sword. Very nice blade, fascinating and in almost perfect conditions. The andle is most probably horn although it is partly damaged it is still very nice. The maker marks is typical of that period. There is an incredible collection of similar Nimcha in display at the Museum of La valletta, in Malta, that I invite everybody to visit. They say that the swrods were collected after the famous battle of the 1565 won from the Malta knights (the former knights of S.John of Jerusalem) that in the previous centuries had their capital in Rodi (http://hubpages.com/hub/Battle-of-Malta-1565-AD). Apparently the siege was carried out by Suleiman and therefore one could expect to find other kind of sword, more linked to the Ottomans. However, a large part of the arm was supported by the muslim commandant Dragut. In the article I addressed they say he was the King of Tripoli but at the Museum is written that his headquarter was the island of Djerba. I bought a quite similar sword some years ago and I enclose its photo. The blade of my Nimcha has some damages but still the same form. In Malta there is a large variety of blades, possibly from 40 to 80 cm long. They are thinner near the base of the blade and enlarge toward the tip in an asymmetrical way exactly as your and my sword. Another splendid Nimcha has been sold this year at the auction of the Hermann-Historica (Auction 58, n.200) that is also referred to the XVII century. As you can see the guard of my Nimcha is different. It has a nicely decorated bridge at the guard. In Malta most of the sword has a handle similar to your sword and only few of my type. I suppose it is connected to a different geographic provenience but I am not sure which is.
Enjoy your sword and best compliments
Mauro

ilias · 12th December 2009, 10:03 AM

Hi Mauro.
Thanks a lot about the informations that you have provide me.
You have made me happy

So just to put the thing in oreder in my mind.
This kind of swords are possibly 17th c. or earlier with custom made blades as referd at Hermman "Pseudo-European".
Am I right?
My sword is 80cm long.It has a great feeling when you hold it and the quility of the steel blade is great.Thats why I first thought that it could be European.
Thanks a lot again.
All the best
Ilias

RSWORD · 12th December 2009, 03:20 PM

Another possible origin for your blade is India. I have seen quite a few blades of this form with the same markings, which were made in imitation of European markings, and in my opinion this entire ensemble is more likely to date to the 19th century rather than much earlier. Out of curiosity, does the spine from the hilt to the point it drops down towards the middle of the blade made with a recess or groove?

Rick · 12th December 2009, 05:24 PM

Marks on a Kirach blade .
I'd vote for India as the source also .

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2009, 05:47 PM

India exported a lot of steel and blades to Arabia and the African east coast from very early times, and the way the blade is looking, I think India may be a possible place of origin.
Jens

Rick · 12th December 2009, 06:45 PM

More similar marks .
These from this Tulwar .

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2009, 06:59 PM

Great example Ilias......and of what appears to be an Arabian style 'nimcha' or sa'if with multi quilloned hilt. On the blade, I very much agree with the excellent points made by Rsword (Rick), Jens and Rick in the plausibly Indian blade. Whatever the case, it is indeed a trade blade, and most likely of 19th century as noted.

Mauro's example is another excellent example of Arab style nimcha which has become known as the 'Zanzibar' form, from the distinct ring on the crossguard, identified from the Buttin collection (Rumilly, 1933, examples 998-1002). It appears to be a genuinely early example, as shown in these in this catalog.

The pommels on these reflect the styles on Arab hilts from 18th into 19th century in Hadhramaut and Yemen, and the 'Zanzibar' type sabres were typically very much 18th and 19th century products carried in the Omani trade from that Sultanate, perhaps into early 20th century.

During these times, the Arab trade carried swords and blades from the west coast Malabar regions to Arabia and into the Red Sea trade routes. It would therefore seem quite plausible that such blades, very much favored by the well known pirate groups on the eastern littoral of Arabia would have been a sound possibility for Ilias' sword. Sabres with this widened tip blade are seen in Elgood's book on Arabian arms, and with varying open hilt styles also of the 'karabela' profile.

The 'Zanzibar' style hilt of Mauro's sword is of the form noted from the Buttin reference and these were notably prevalent in Yemen in the latter 19th century. A large group of these were discovered in a Yemeni armoury in recent times. Although Buttin's catalog suggests 17th-18th century for these, the period was a benchmark for the form which seems to derive from earlier Italian hilts which of course were well known in these trade routes.
In looking at Mauro's outstanding example, I very much believe it is likely a 17th century example, which well supports the early period for these types which were produced in that tradition into the later periods noted.

The markings seen are interpretations of early examples from Italian blades which were of course quality and guild associated, and were adopted by many native smiths to presumably imbue certain talismanic properties and suggest quality.

It is interesting to note the variations of these remarkably similar nimcha types, and distinguish them from the more familiar Moroccan sa'if. As always, with the profound trade and colonization through these centuries and in these regions, the forms diffused widely.

All best regards,
Jim

ilias · 13th December 2009, 01:01 PM

I am sorry for my late reply but due to some internet problems I couldn't answer.
Thanks everybody for the informations that you gave me.
As i see I must say "goodbye" at the 17th-18th c.

Nevermind I still like the blade form of that sword.
Rsword.Yes at the spine there is a groove.Does it states that it is an Indian blade?
All the best
Ilias

RSWORD · 13th December 2009, 03:56 PM

Hi Ilias,

Yes, that groove in the spine adds further evidence that this is most probably an Indian blade and I suspected it to be there due to the overall shape of the blade. These grooves in the spine are found in Indian swords and also but more rarely on Chinese and East European swords. The blade on this example is most probably a pattern welded blade but wootz would not be out of the question. Take it out in the sunlight and have a close look at the blade, angling it in the sunlight and you may be able to make out some patterning in the blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th December 2009, 04:46 PM

Ilias, try to have a look at this blade form. It is not quite like yours, but it is in the same style, the blade being broader towards the tip.

Mauro · 13th December 2009, 08:51 PM

Hi everybody, with so many people pronouncing for a much later time I have to convince myself that I was wrong. Jim is also able to distinguish the blade of Ilias from the blade of my Nimcha and naturally he has more experince than me. To support a XVII century for my Nimcha was also a vague attribution to the Belluno swordsmiths made by a friend of mine that is an Italian expert of XVII century italian swords. Unfortunately I have no photos of the La Valletta Armoury Museum in Malta, because to my memory there were many similar blades. They also had similar marks also if no one of them was similar to the other. All had geometric marks with dots and small arcs. I tried to find some photos in the net by the only photo I was able to find is that visible in the enlcosed link http://www.sitesandphotos.com/catalo.../id-53115.html
In the Museum there are possible 40 swords of this type. As you can see from the photo some are smaller or they have a larger blade at the tip. The variability is impressive. As I told you, few of them have a bridge like my Nimcha. Naturally it is possible that in the past they have got their blades from a long distance source such as India. Many thanks to Jim for the mentioned books and articles that I shall try to find. Unfortunately, sometimes I am not used to books that most probably for most of you are milestones. My I suggest the moderators to create a reference list that it will be possible to enlarge adding new discoveries. I suppose it could be useful for people that are at the beginning.
all the best to all of you
Mauro

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2009, 10:43 PM

I am always delighted when Jens posts this fabulous tulwar! The blade on it is a fantastic example that reflects so many important features, and emphasizes the widened point which evolved from the yelmaned swords of Turkic tribes.

Mauro I must apologize for not properly citing those references, which I normally do, but am afraid I just got lazy

"Catalogue de la Collection D'Armes Anciennes de Charles Buttin"
Rumilly, 1933 . As noted the Arab sa'ifs with ringed bridge are shown as previously cited.

"Les Poignards et les Sabres Marocains" in Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939 p.1
Charles Buttin

Buttin lived in Morocco much of his life, and was one of the foremost collectors and researchers of arms and armor of his time.

"A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North (formerly of Victoria Albert Museum, retired)
"The Connoisseur" Dece,ber, 1975, p.239
Excellent information on the associations between early Italian swords and the Moroccan sa'if (nimcha).

"Armi Bianchi Italiene", Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975
Excellent resource on Italian swords and daggers of Renaissance period, and profound detail on markings.

A number of years ago, Louis-Pierre Cavaille, an excellent researcher and writer who once posted here, did some outstanding work titled "Nimcha du Maghreb" which shows distinctions between Arab and Maghreb nimchas.
The web site address:
http://blade.japet.com/NIMCHA/N-introd.htm

We have tried many times over the years to put together comprehensive book lists, however these efforts have usually tailed off. I know that for me here in 'the bookmobile' my holdings are limited, and I often rely on previous posts for detailed information, especially titles.
I simply use the search feature at the top header, and as in this case, found the Anthony North article listed by use of his name from a 2005 thread.

I have always regarded Italy as a key source for styles in weaponry throughout these trade routes, and the nimcha is a classic example.
It is interesting that the same basic hilt guard system is seen from Arabia to North Africa, and eastward to the decorative kastane hilts of sabres of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).
In the 17th century, trade contacts and other interaction such as with 'Barbary Pirates' led to keen awareness of these 'exotic' hilts and influenced weapons in France and England. There are several known portraits on influential English figures of 17th century wearing swords with these hilts.

All best regards,
Jim

11th December 2009, 08:09 PM	#1
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	NIMCHA WITH EUROPEAN BLADE???? Hi everyone. I have just aquired this nimcha.It is not quite my field so I want your advice about the blade.Can be possibly be a trade European blade ? or a custom made one.?It has some marks on it which I cannot identify. Is it possible to be an 18th c. one? Thanks in advance for the help. All the best Ilias Attached Images

12th December 2009, 01:52 AM	#2
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	quite lucky with your nimcha. In my opinion it is a XVII-XVIII century sword. Very nice blade, fascinating and in almost perfect conditions. The andle is most probably horn although it is partly damaged it is still very nice. The maker marks is typical of that period. There is an incredible collection of similar Nimcha in display at the Museum of La valletta, in Malta, that I invite everybody to visit. They say that the swrods were collected after the famous battle of the 1565 won from the Malta knights (the former knights of S.John of Jerusalem) that in the previous centuries had their capital in Rodi (http://hubpages.com/hub/Battle-of-Malta-1565-AD). Apparently the siege was carried out by Suleiman and therefore one could expect to find other kind of sword, more linked to the Ottomans. However, a large part of the arm was supported by the muslim commandant Dragut. In the article I addressed they say he was the King of Tripoli but at the Museum is written that his headquarter was the island of Djerba. I bought a quite similar sword some years ago and I enclose its photo. The blade of my Nimcha has some damages but still the same form. In Malta there is a large variety of blades, possibly from 40 to 80 cm long. They are thinner near the base of the blade and enlarge toward the tip in an asymmetrical way exactly as your and my sword. Another splendid Nimcha has been sold this year at the auction of the Hermann-Historica (Auction 58, n.200) that is also referred to the XVII century. As you can see the guard of my Nimcha is different. It has a nicely decorated bridge at the guard. In Malta most of the sword has a handle similar to your sword and only few of my type. I suppose it is connected to a different geographic provenience but I am not sure which is. Enjoy your sword and best compliments Mauro Attached Images

12th December 2009, 05:24 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Marks on a Kirach blade . I'd vote for India as the source also . Attached Images

12th December 2009, 06:45 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	More similar marks . These from this Tulwar . Attached Images

13th December 2009, 04:46 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ilias, try to have a look at this blade form. It is not quite like yours, but it is in the same style, the blade being broader towards the tip. Attached Images

12th December 2009, 10:03 AM	#3
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	Hi Mauro. Thanks a lot about the informations that you have provide me. You have made me happy So just to put the thing in oreder in my mind. This kind of swords are possibly 17th c. or earlier with custom made blades as referd at Hermman "Pseudo-European". Am I right? My sword is 80cm long.It has a great feeling when you hold it and the quility of the steel blade is great.Thats why I first thought that it could be European. Thanks a lot again. All the best Ilias

12th December 2009, 03:20 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Another possible origin for your blade is India. I have seen quite a few blades of this form with the same markings, which were made in imitation of European markings, and in my opinion this entire ensemble is more likely to date to the 19th century rather than much earlier. Out of curiosity, does the spine from the hilt to the point it drops down towards the middle of the blade made with a recess or groove?

12th December 2009, 05:47 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	India exported a lot of steel and blades to Arabia and the African east coast from very early times, and the way the blade is looking, I think India may be a possible place of origin. Jens

12th December 2009, 06:59 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Great example Ilias......and of what appears to be an Arabian style 'nimcha' or sa'if with multi quilloned hilt. On the blade, I very much agree with the excellent points made by Rsword (Rick), Jens and Rick in the plausibly Indian blade. Whatever the case, it is indeed a trade blade, and most likely of 19th century as noted. Mauro's example is another excellent example of Arab style nimcha which has become known as the 'Zanzibar' form, from the distinct ring on the crossguard, identified from the Buttin collection (Rumilly, 1933, examples 998-1002). It appears to be a genuinely early example, as shown in these in this catalog. The pommels on these reflect the styles on Arab hilts from 18th into 19th century in Hadhramaut and Yemen, and the 'Zanzibar' type sabres were typically very much 18th and 19th century products carried in the Omani trade from that Sultanate, perhaps into early 20th century. During these times, the Arab trade carried swords and blades from the west coast Malabar regions to Arabia and into the Red Sea trade routes. It would therefore seem quite plausible that such blades, very much favored by the well known pirate groups on the eastern littoral of Arabia would have been a sound possibility for Ilias' sword. Sabres with this widened tip blade are seen in Elgood's book on Arabian arms, and with varying open hilt styles also of the 'karabela' profile. The 'Zanzibar' style hilt of Mauro's sword is of the form noted from the Buttin reference and these were notably prevalent in Yemen in the latter 19th century. A large group of these were discovered in a Yemeni armoury in recent times. Although Buttin's catalog suggests 17th-18th century for these, the period was a benchmark for the form which seems to derive from earlier Italian hilts which of course were well known in these trade routes. In looking at Mauro's outstanding example, I very much believe it is likely a 17th century example, which well supports the early period for these types which were produced in that tradition into the later periods noted. The markings seen are interpretations of early examples from Italian blades which were of course quality and guild associated, and were adopted by many native smiths to presumably imbue certain talismanic properties and suggest quality. It is interesting to note the variations of these remarkably similar nimcha types, and distinguish them from the more familiar Moroccan sa'if. As always, with the profound trade and colonization through these centuries and in these regions, the forms diffused widely. All best regards, Jim

13th December 2009, 01:01 PM	#9
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	I am sorry for my late reply but due to some internet problems I couldn't answer. Thanks everybody for the informations that you gave me. As i see I must say "goodbye" at the 17th-18th c. Nevermind I still like the blade form of that sword. Rsword.Yes at the spine there is a groove.Does it states that it is an Indian blade? All the best Ilias

13th December 2009, 03:56 PM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Hi Ilias, Yes, that groove in the spine adds further evidence that this is most probably an Indian blade and I suspected it to be there due to the overall shape of the blade. These grooves in the spine are found in Indian swords and also but more rarely on Chinese and East European swords. The blade on this example is most probably a pattern welded blade but wootz would not be out of the question. Take it out in the sunlight and have a close look at the blade, angling it in the sunlight and you may be able to make out some patterning in the blade.

13th December 2009, 08:51 PM	#12
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	Hi everybody, with so many people pronouncing for a much later time I have to convince myself that I was wrong. Jim is also able to distinguish the blade of Ilias from the blade of my Nimcha and naturally he has more experince than me. To support a XVII century for my Nimcha was also a vague attribution to the Belluno swordsmiths made by a friend of mine that is an Italian expert of XVII century italian swords. Unfortunately I have no photos of the La Valletta Armoury Museum in Malta, because to my memory there were many similar blades. They also had similar marks also if no one of them was similar to the other. All had geometric marks with dots and small arcs. I tried to find some photos in the net by the only photo I was able to find is that visible in the enlcosed link http://www.sitesandphotos.com/catalo.../id-53115.html In the Museum there are possible 40 swords of this type. As you can see from the photo some are smaller or they have a larger blade at the tip. The variability is impressive. As I told you, few of them have a bridge like my Nimcha. Naturally it is possible that in the past they have got their blades from a long distance source such as India. Many thanks to Jim for the mentioned books and articles that I shall try to find. Unfortunately, sometimes I am not used to books that most probably for most of you are milestones. My I suggest the moderators to create a reference list that it will be possible to enlarge adding new discoveries. I suppose it could be useful for people that are at the beginning. all the best to all of you Mauro

13th December 2009, 10:43 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I am always delighted when Jens posts this fabulous tulwar! The blade on it is a fantastic example that reflects so many important features, and emphasizes the widened point which evolved from the yelmaned swords of Turkic tribes. Mauro I must apologize for not properly citing those references, which I normally do, but am afraid I just got lazy "Catalogue de la Collection D'Armes Anciennes de Charles Buttin" Rumilly, 1933 . As noted the Arab sa'ifs with ringed bridge are shown as previously cited. "Les Poignards et les Sabres Marocains" in Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939 p.1 Charles Buttin Buttin lived in Morocco much of his life, and was one of the foremost collectors and researchers of arms and armor of his time. "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North (formerly of Victoria Albert Museum, retired) "The Connoisseur" Dece,ber, 1975, p.239 Excellent information on the associations between early Italian swords and the Moroccan sa'if (nimcha). "Armi Bianchi Italiene", Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975 Excellent resource on Italian swords and daggers of Renaissance period, and profound detail on markings. A number of years ago, Louis-Pierre Cavaille, an excellent researcher and writer who once posted here, did some outstanding work titled "Nimcha du Maghreb" which shows distinctions between Arab and Maghreb nimchas. The web site address: http://blade.japet.com/NIMCHA/N-introd.htm We have tried many times over the years to put together comprehensive book lists, however these efforts have usually tailed off. I know that for me here in 'the bookmobile' my holdings are limited, and I often rely on previous posts for detailed information, especially titles. I simply use the search feature at the top header, and as in this case, found the Anthony North article listed by use of his name from a 2005 thread. I have always regarded Italy as a key source for styles in weaponry throughout these trade routes, and the nimcha is a classic example. It is interesting that the same basic hilt guard system is seen from Arabia to North Africa, and eastward to the decorative kastane hilts of sabres of Ceylon (Sri Lanka). In the 17th century, trade contacts and other interaction such as with 'Barbary Pirates' led to keen awareness of these 'exotic' hilts and influenced weapons in France and England. There are several known portraits on influential English figures of 17th century wearing swords with these hilts. All best regards, Jim