Indonesian Riddle - Who knows what this is?

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 07:12 PM

I just acquired this Indonesian piece.
I am quite certain (well I was not there..) that the inscriptions are old and not as many recently added.

I do not know from which region this piece originates.

The blade hints at Borneo?

The inscriptions look like the could be even Bali (like the ceremonial axes).

The handle although very old and patinated and part of this piece for a very long time but might not be original to the piece in my opinion.

I have already asked help from a forumite with the translation of the text What I know from him so far is it contains "the usual islamic declaration of faith "Laillaha illah muhamadar rasullullah" - There is no god but Allah, Muhamad is His messenger and the words "Allah" repeated several times. The rest are mainly talismanic writings that contain "wafak" or arabic alphabets / numerical configuration that I could not decipher.

Additional input of course is welcome.

Regards, Erik

ThePepperSkull · 30th September 2009, 07:14 PM

could we get a closer look at the hilt? What's it made of? Horn? wood?

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 07:14 PM

Here some detail from one side

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 07:16 PM

one detail of the other side

fearn · 30th September 2009, 07:30 PM

Hi Erik,

Neat blade! Someone really wanted magic in their sword, given all that talismanic writing they etched into it.

I have my guesses, but I'll let the Indonesian guys make a definitive diagnosis. It would be an unusual item for Bali. Most (but not all) of the script and symbolism on the side is Arabic, which suggests strongly that it came from a Muslim island. Bali is Hindu.

Best,

F

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Erik,

Neat blade! Someone really wanted magic in their sword, given all that talismanic writing they etched into it.

I have my guesses, but I'll let the Indonesian guys make a definitive diagnosis. It would be an unusual item for Bali. Most (but not all) of the script and symbolism on the side is Arabic, which suggests strongly that it came from a Muslim island. Bali is Hindu.

Best,

F

Totally agree with the Bali remark - I was directing at the decorations in between only. Just added to the first post a translation I received from another forumite.

Regards, Erik

Sajen · 30th September 2009, 07:49 PM

Hello Erik,

the blade look from the shape like a Mandau blade, but only from the shape. There is no concave/convex at the blade. Anyway, my guess that this is a Borneo blade. Maybe a Banjarmasin sword? It is also possible that the golden and silverinlays from different times, the golden inlays seems to be hindu, see the hindu cross.
Let us see what the experts will tell. BTW, very interesting and nice blade!

sajen

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

could we get a closer look at the hilt? What's it made of? Horn? wood?

It is wood - will make picture in daylight tomorrow and ad it.
Will also make some pics of the top that has also inscriptions and the front top that has been formed around the round inlays at the front

Regards, Erik

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Erik,

the blade look from the shape like a Mandau blade, but only from the shape. There is no concave/convex at the blade. Anyway, my guess that this is a Borneo blade. Maybe a Banjarmasin sword? It is also possible that the golden and silverinlays from different times, the golden inlays seems to be hindu, see the hindu cross.
Let us see what the experts will tell. BTW, very interesting and nice blade!

sajen

Interesting remark about the different period with the inlays - there does seem to be a difference in workmanship too.

David · 30th September 2009, 08:20 PM

Well, i don't know about anyone else, but it sure is a weapon i would want in my collection.

I have to agree that the swastika design seems to be Hindu while there are obvious references to Islam as well in the silver so the to inlays may have been done at different times.

fearn · 30th September 2009, 08:42 PM

Looking at it some more, I'm not so sure that the writings were done at two different times. Basically, the design layout is too unified, and I don't see evidence that one artist scraped off the design of another in order to make room for his design, which the artist would need to, given that the Hindu and Muslim motifs are mixed..

What I'd suggest is that the blade might in fact be talismanic in some way. Since magical objects often blend faiths (at least in Europe), I think the combination of Muslim and Hindu religious symbology may have been deliberate. The individual motifs may have even been done by different artists, but there was a single design overall, and the blade decorations were put together all at once.

Perhaps it has been rehilted, too?

Best,

F

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 08:49 PM

What do you think the use would have been with this amount of talismanic script? Ceremonial only or also fighting? (the point was chipped off but not recently)

I also go for rehilted but long (maybe more than 100 years) ago or so as the current hilt also has a lot of age.

Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Looking at it some more, I'm not so sure that the writings were done at two different times. Basically, the design layout is too unified, and I don't see evidence that one artist scraped off the design of another in order to make room for his design, which the artist would need to, given that the Hindu and Muslim motifs are mixed..

What I'd suggest is that the blade might in fact be talismanic in some way. Since magical objects often blend faiths (at least in Europe), I think the combination of Muslim and Hindu religious symbology may have been deliberate. The individual motifs may have even been done by different artists, but there was a single design overall, and the blade decorations were put together all at once.

Perhaps it has been rehilted, too?

Best,

F

erikscollectables · 30th September 2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't know about anyone else, but it sure is a weapon i would want in my collection.

Thanks, that is what I thought also the first time I saw it and it took me a long time to get it

fearn · 30th September 2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

What do you think the use would have been with this amount of talismanic script? Ceremonial only or also fighting? (the point was chipped off but not recently)

I also go for rehilted but long (maybe more than 100 years) ago or so as the current hilt also has a lot of age.

Erik

Not sure about the amount of talismanic stuff. My guess would be superstition (i.e. the owner or gift-giver wanted to make sure this blade was "lucky"), but I don't know enough about Indonesian shamanism (whatever the local version is) to know whether this would be appropriate as a spiritual/ceremonial weapon.

Was it used? You can tell us. There is that chipped tip, but from the photos, I can't tell whether the blade has been reground, or whether it was never used. Right now, I don't see any signs of use damage (other than the tip), and absent that, it's hard to tell whether it was ever used.

Best,

F

Lew · 30th September 2009, 10:34 PM

Here is one I owned in 2001 it also had inscriptions on the blade.

asomotif · 30th September 2009, 11:23 PM

Hello Erik,

Interesting blade. Where do you keep finding them

Maybe this weapon was made for a muslim living on Borneo ?

Lews example also shows some borneo influence, but Sumatra springs to mind as well on that one.

Mytribalworld · 1st October 2009, 12:47 AM

sorry

erikscollectables · 1st October 2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Here is one I owned in 2001 it also had inscriptions on the blade.

Do you still have a photo of the inscriptions that it had?
What was the attribution of your piece?

Erik

Henk · 1st October 2009, 07:46 PM

Great sword and a great find.

In my opinion definitely Borneo.
My first thought was a rehilted parang ihlang.

asomotif · 2nd October 2009, 11:13 PM

Hello Erik,

Somebody noticed some square motifs on the blade similar to the parang nabur decoration :

erikscollectables · 3rd October 2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Erik,

Somebody noticed some square motifs on the blade similar to the parang nabur decoration :

Interesting! A forumite with knowledge of the Arabic knowledge called this wafak - arabic numeric/alphabet configuration with probably a talismanic reason and not translatable.

Would like a complete picture of the parang if possible....

Regards, Erik

asomotif · 3rd October 2009, 10:11 AM

Hello Erik,

Quote:

Would like a complete picture of the parang if possible....

It is a picture that I "boroughed" somewhere on the web.
Found via Google.
It is a parang nabur, but no use to put the full picture here.

As for the square, may I quote Michael Marlow / VVV from this thread :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=parang+nabur

:

Quote:

The square is quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

erikscollectables · 3rd October 2009, 07:12 PM

Here some more photo's.
Top with inscriptions top of the point with very nice workmanship.
Handle and blade going into the handle.

Based on the info sofar I think the handle is original to the blade (mainly based on the other example shown and the info from Arjan (Mandaukudi))

Blade looks like it has seen some use but not intensely.

The blade has several islamic texts and extensive wafak/wafq that is talismanic in meaning. The reason for the hindu decorations in combination with the islamic parts is still unclear to me. (Wafq was unkown to me so Asomotif thanks for the hint to the earlier discussion here with VVV)

Thanks for all the reactions so far, Erik

Dom · 5th October 2009, 01:52 AM

Hi Gentlemen
some answers before attemp of translation (on way)

1) the mentions are in arabic, and shows an unity of engraver
2) no date, no name

only religious proclamations
2) the "magic squares" aren't strange, even sometimes associated with symbols, it's covers e.i.
- a shirt to protect the warrior during a battle, (pic joined)
- magical bowls called also healthy, or medical bowls (pics upon request)
- back-pages of the Holy Quran (old hand-writting) (pics upon request), etc..
those 2 last are from my personal collections

à +

Dom

erikscollectables · 5th October 2009, 08:13 PM

Hi Dom,

Thanks so far for the input and I look forward to your translation!

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gentlemen
some answers before attemp of translation (on way)

1) the mentions are in arabic, and shows an unity of engraver
2) no date, no name

only religious proclamations
2) the "magic squares" aren't strange, even sometimes associated with symbols, it's covers e.i.
- a shirt to protect the warrior during a battle, (pic joined)
- magical bowls called also healthy, or medical bowls (pics upon request)
- back-pages of the Holy Quran (old hand-writting) (pics upon request), etc..
those 2 last are from my personal collections

à +

Dom

Dom · 9th October 2009, 01:23 AM

Hi Erik
sorry, I have been long to delivre ....

has many pic's to don't mix every thing, one email per pic and translation

the easiest one ...

either "illegible" or magic squares, and designs

à +

Dom

Dom · 9th October 2009, 01:58 AM

the longest ...

1st sentence by the top
-BISMILEH ARRAHMAN ARRAHIM, YA ALLAH LA ILLAH AL ALLAH AL AZIM Y ALLAH either in English IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL
2nd sentence (at right)
-ALLAH ALLAH ALLAH either in English GOD GOD GOD
3rd sentence
-ALLAH AL HARADAL SAMAD YA ALLAH either in English GOD THE ONE, THE ETERNALLY BESOUGHT OF ALL 2 first verses of surat (112) Al Ikhlas
4th sentence
-LELLAH ASSAMAWAT WA AL HARD either in English FOR GOD THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH
5th sentence
-YA ZA ALGALAL WA AL EKHAME either in English HE HAS MAJESTY, AND HE IS THE MOST GENEROUS

à +

Dom

Dom · 9th October 2009, 02:07 AM

a brief

1st lign
- BIMELLAH either in English IN THE NAME OF GOD
2nd lign
- YA ALLAH AL MAHMOUD FI KOL AF'ALEH either in English IN ALL HE IS DOING HE IS
LAUDABLE

à +
Dom

Dom · 9th October 2009, 02:30 AM

so sorry for confusion ... (to Stephen, and his kaskara)
could occur when many translations ...

he 1st lign is part (first sentence) of the verse 58 surate "Al Furqan"
" .... WA TAKALTO ALA EL LAZI LAYAMOUT CHA'HET AL WOUGOUD" either in English; "AND TRUST THOU IN THE LIVEING ONE WHO DIETH NO".

the 2nd sentence; certainly extracted from the Holy quran, but I didn't find exactly the surate
" WA OMAT AL APTSAR WA TAWAKALTO ALA ALLAH EL WAHED QL KA'HARE" either in English; "WITNESS FOR OUR TIME BEING, THEIR VIEW IS BLIND, GOD IS UNIQUE AND ALWAYS VICTORIOUS".

à +

Dom

erikscollectables · 9th October 2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Dom

Dom, my very sincere thanks for your help.
This is a lot of work and I appreciate the time you put into it!
Great!

Regards, Erik

30th September 2009, 07:12 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Indonesian Riddle - Who knows what this is? I just acquired this Indonesian piece. I am quite certain (well I was not there..) that the inscriptions are old and not as many recently added. I do not know from which region this piece originates. The blade hints at Borneo? The inscriptions look like the could be even Bali (like the ceremonial axes). The handle although very old and patinated and part of this piece for a very long time but might not be original to the piece in my opinion. I have already asked help from a forumite with the translation of the text What I know from him so far is it contains "the usual islamic declaration of faith "Laillaha illah muhamadar rasullullah" - There is no god but Allah, Muhamad is His messenger and the words "Allah" repeated several times. The rest are mainly talismanic writings that contain "wafak" or arabic alphabets / numerical configuration that I could not decipher. Additional input of course is welcome. Regards, Erik Attached Images Last edited by erikscollectables; 30th September 2009 at 07:31 PM.

30th September 2009, 07:14 PM	#3
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	details from one side Here some detail from one side Attached Images

30th September 2009, 07:16 PM	#4
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Detail from other side one detail of the other side Attached Images

30th September 2009, 10:34 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is one I owned in 2001 it also had inscriptions on the blade. Attached Images

1st October 2009, 12:47 AM	#17
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	edit sorry Last edited by mandaukudi; 1st October 2009 at 05:21 PM. Reason: personal

30th September 2009, 07:14 PM	#2
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	could we get a closer look at the hilt? What's it made of? Horn? wood?

30th September 2009, 07:30 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Erik, Neat blade! Someone really wanted magic in their sword, given all that talismanic writing they etched into it. I have my guesses, but I'll let the Indonesian guys make a definitive diagnosis. It would be an unusual item for Bali. Most (but not all) of the script and symbolism on the side is Arabic, which suggests strongly that it came from a Muslim island. Bali is Hindu. Best, F

30th September 2009, 07:49 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Erik, the blade look from the shape like a Mandau blade, but only from the shape. There is no concave/convex at the blade. Anyway, my guess that this is a Borneo blade. Maybe a Banjarmasin sword? It is also possible that the golden and silverinlays from different times, the golden inlays seems to be hindu, see the hindu cross. Let us see what the experts will tell. BTW, very interesting and nice blade! sajen

30th September 2009, 08:20 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well, i don't know about anyone else, but it sure is a weapon i would want in my collection. I have to agree that the swastika design seems to be Hindu while there are obvious references to Islam as well in the silver so the to inlays may have been done at different times.

30th September 2009, 08:42 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Looking at it some more, I'm not so sure that the writings were done at two different times. Basically, the design layout is too unified, and I don't see evidence that one artist scraped off the design of another in order to make room for his design, which the artist would need to, given that the Hindu and Muslim motifs are mixed.. What I'd suggest is that the blade might in fact be talismanic in some way. Since magical objects often blend faiths (at least in Europe), I think the combination of Muslim and Hindu religious symbology may have been deliberate. The individual motifs may have even been done by different artists, but there was a single design overall, and the blade decorations were put together all at once. Perhaps it has been rehilted, too? Best, F

30th September 2009, 11:23 PM	#16
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Erik, Interesting blade. Where do you keep finding them Maybe this weapon was made for a muslim living on Borneo ? Lews example also shows some borneo influence, but Sumatra springs to mind as well on that one.

1st October 2009, 07:46 PM	#19
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Great sword and a great find. In my opinion definitely Borneo. My first thought was a rehilted parang ihlang.

2nd October 2009, 11:13 PM	#20
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Erik, Somebody noticed some square motifs on the blade similar to the parang nabur decoration : Attached Images

3rd October 2009, 07:12 PM	#23
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	more photo's Here some more photo's. Top with inscriptions top of the point with very nice workmanship. Handle and blade going into the handle. Based on the info sofar I think the handle is original to the blade (mainly based on the other example shown and the info from Arjan (Mandaukudi)) Blade looks like it has seen some use but not intensely. The blade has several islamic texts and extensive wafak/wafq that is talismanic in meaning. The reason for the hindu decorations in combination with the islamic parts is still unclear to me. (Wafq was unkown to me so Asomotif thanks for the hint to the earlier discussion here with VVV) Thanks for all the reactions so far, Erik Attached Images

5th October 2009, 01:52 AM	#24
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Gentlemen some answers before attemp of translation (on way) 1) the mentions are in arabic, and shows an unity of engraver 2) no date, no name only religious proclamations 2) the "magic squares" aren't strange, even sometimes associated with symbols, it's covers e.i. - a shirt to protect the warrior during a battle, (pic joined) - magical bowls called also healthy, or medical bowls (pics upon request) - back-pages of the Holy Quran (old hand-writting) (pics upon request), etc.. those 2 last are from my personal collections à + Dom Attached Images

9th October 2009, 01:23 AM	#26
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Erik sorry, I have been long to delivre .... has many pic's to don't mix every thing, one email per pic and translation the easiest one ... either "illegible" or magic squares, and designs à + Dom Attached Images

9th October 2009, 01:58 AM	#27
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	the longest ... 1st sentence by the top -BISMILEH ARRAHMAN ARRAHIM, YA ALLAH LA ILLAH AL ALLAH AL AZIM Y ALLAH either in English IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL 2nd sentence (at right) -ALLAH ALLAH ALLAH either in English GOD GOD GOD 3rd sentence -ALLAH AL HARADAL SAMAD YA ALLAH either in English GOD THE ONE, THE ETERNALLY BESOUGHT OF ALL 2 first verses of surat (112) Al Ikhlas 4th sentence -LELLAH ASSAMAWAT WA AL HARD either in English FOR GOD THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH 5th sentence -YA ZA ALGALAL WA AL EKHAME either in English HE HAS MAJESTY, AND HE IS THE MOST GENEROUS à + Dom Attached Images

9th October 2009, 02:07 AM	#28
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	a brief 1st lign - BIMELLAH either in English IN THE NAME OF GOD 2nd lign - YA ALLAH AL MAHMOUD FI KOL AF'ALEH either in English IN ALL HE IS DOING HE IS LAUDABLE à + Dom Attached Images

9th October 2009, 02:30 AM	#29
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	so sorry for confusion ... (to Stephen, and his kaskara) could occur when many translations ... he 1st lign is part (first sentence) of the verse 58 surate "Al Furqan" " .... WA TAKALTO ALA EL LAZI LAYAMOUT CHA'HET AL WOUGOUD" either in English; "AND TRUST THOU IN THE LIVEING ONE WHO DIETH NO". the 2nd sentence; certainly extracted from the Holy quran, but I didn't find exactly the surate " WA OMAT AL APTSAR WA TAWAKALTO ALA ALLAH EL WAHED QL KA'HARE" either in English; "WITNESS FOR OUR TIME BEING, THEIR VIEW IS BLIND, GOD IS UNIQUE AND ALWAYS VICTORIOUS". à + Dom Attached Images Last edited by Dom; 9th October 2009 at 03:46 AM.