dha handles for ID

cedric Le Dauphin · 14th November 2006, 09:26 AM

Hi! everyone

I have a few dha handles to identify. I know that the forum has some specialists of this weapon. Thanks to then for enlightening an amateur on their provenance.
I was also wondering about the recursive subject of the sculpture. The one I have seem to have a "monster" bearing a prince on their back. I thought of Satsuma carried by Kalmasapada, but I don't even know if they exists in the local folklore.
Thanks to all of you

Ian · 14th November 2006, 02:48 PM

Hi Cedric:

Good to see another dha fancier on the forum.

Lovely carved hilts. All of these appear to be Burmese in origin, or at least in the Burmese style. Many of these hilts are also given a provenance of "hill tribe" -- indicating they may be from the NE area of Burma, traditionally a Shan region but with other ethnic groups as well.

I don't think all of these examples are necessarily Shan or from that area. I have not seen this form of intricate ivory carving, which resembles Chinese carving in style (sometimes with a figure inside the network of vines and leaves), on Thai, Lao or Cambodian knives and swords.

The Shan were originally from China and were forced south in the 13-14th C., so a link to traditional Chinese ivory carving would make sense.

Ian.

Battara · 14th November 2006, 08:40 PM

Ian would it be correct to say that all of these examples so far are not temple or priest hilts?

PUFF · 15th November 2006, 03:36 AM

I placed a pic in Dahb's hilt thread here...

http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index....threadid=10923

Comments will be translated for you

Ian · 15th November 2006, 04:01 AM

I think that is correct Jose. These are usually seen on knives made for cutting and stabbing rather than for spiritual purposes.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ian would it be correct to say that all of these examples so far are not temple or priest hilts?

Ian · 15th November 2006, 04:05 AM

PUFF:

What is the dahb directly above the hilt that you posted on that thread?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

I placed a pic in Dahb's hilt thread here...

http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index....threadid=10923

Comments will be translated for you

PUFF · 15th November 2006, 11:50 AM

It 's oval x-section style, found in the northern part of Thailand. We are going to classify this style as an oval hilt family. One guy said that the wooden ones are copies of a silver one. And one guy suggested that the style might be inspired by japanese one.

We still don't know about the carved one. One one guy mentioned that the style could be burmese.

Mark · 16th November 2006, 04:29 PM

According Fraser-Lu, the fine, pierced ivory carving is a style characteristic of Lower Burma, originating in Moulmien (just above the Malay Peninsula) but now done in Rangoon, the Moulmien industry having died out. Fraser-Lu, "Burmese Crafts," p. 114. According to Egerton, ivory carving in high-relief was a Shan style. Egerton, "An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms and Those of Nepal, Burma, Thailand and Malaya," p. 85. This, of course, does not tell us whether or not a high-relief carving style is/was found further south, but many (if not most) of the non-pierced, high-relief handles I have seen are on Shan dha, and the pierced styles on Burman dha.

Shan dha

Burman dha

cedric Le Dauphin · 17th November 2006, 11:35 AM

hi! everyone

Thank you all for your replies.
I also found out the subject was kalmasapada carrying Sutasoma. For your info these handles have been brought back in Europe in the 30's.
Where I'm mixed, it's the ethnic attribution.
On one side I have "Metro Kachin" and the other I have "sham". not beeing a specialist of this region, i don't even know if they are the same people, close neighbours or from distant regions.

Ian · 17th November 2006, 03:26 PM

The designations of "Metro Kachin" and "Shan" seen in a particular classification scheme may not be correct with respect to the ivory hilt styles. We do see substantial cross over in styles between Kachin and Shan styles among Burman groups. The "Metro" designation implies the adaptation of these respective styles outside their home territories, primarily by Burman groups living in more populated centers. The Kachin, of course, occupy mainly the northern and NW states, while the Shan are mainly in the NE states. Burmans are mainly lowlanders,

The classification system that you refer to takes into account hilt styles, but is also based on blade geometry and scabbard styles. Hope this helps.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedric Le Dauphin

hi! everyone

Thank you all for your replies.
I also found out the subject was kalmasapada carrying Sutasoma. For your info these handles have been brought back in Europe in the 30's.
Where I'm mixed, it's the ethnic attribution.
On one side I have "Metro Kachin" and the other I have "sham". not beeing a specialist of this region, i don't even know if they are the same people, close neighbours or from distant regions.

Andrew · 17th November 2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The classification system that you refer to takes into account hilt styles, but is also based on blade geometry and scabbard styles. Hope this helps.

Ian.

And is in desperate need of an update. We need to get with Mark on this as he's been doing a good bit of research on it, I believe.

cedric Le Dauphin · 18th November 2006, 08:15 AM

Hi! everyone
It's even better with the pic that I hadn't the last time.(thank you mark)
And thank you Ian for the explanations.
I promise to keep you posted on this collection.
Best regards
Cedric

Ian · 18th November 2006, 05:18 PM

PUFF:

I don't want to hijack Cedric's thread, but I am curious about the oval-hilted sword you mention. Do you think that you could start a new thread and post some pictures here about that sword? The reason I ask is because I have a Cambodian sword, very old and much sharpened over the years, with an oval cross section and carved features that suggest a possible Japanese influence.

Any connection between the origin of the sword on the Thai site and Cambodia?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

It 's oval x-section style, found in the northern part of Thailand. We are going to classify this style as an oval hilt family. One guy said that the wooden ones are copies of a silver one. And one guy suggested that the style might be inspired by japanese one.

We still don't know about the carved one. One one guy mentioned that the style could be burmese.

PUFF · 19th November 2006, 04:19 AM

I still waiting for pics of the silver one and I will re-post all pics in a new thread.

14th November 2006, 09:26 AM	#1
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	dha handles for ID Hi! everyone I have a few dha handles to identify. I know that the forum has some specialists of this weapon. Thanks to then for enlightening an amateur on their provenance. I was also wondering about the recursive subject of the sculpture. The one I have seem to have a "monster" bearing a prince on their back. I thought of Satsuma carried by Kalmasapada, but I don't even know if they exists in the local folklore. Thanks to all of you Attached Images

14th November 2006, 02:48 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Cedric: Good to see another dha fancier on the forum. Lovely carved hilts. All of these appear to be Burmese in origin, or at least in the Burmese style. Many of these hilts are also given a provenance of "hill tribe" -- indicating they may be from the NE area of Burma, traditionally a Shan region but with other ethnic groups as well. I don't think all of these examples are necessarily Shan or from that area. I have not seen this form of intricate ivory carving, which resembles Chinese carving in style (sometimes with a figure inside the network of vines and leaves), on Thai, Lao or Cambodian knives and swords. The Shan were originally from China and were forced south in the 13-14th C., so a link to traditional Chinese ivory carving would make sense. Ian.

14th November 2006, 08:40 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Ian would it be correct to say that all of these examples so far are not temple or priest hilts?

15th November 2006, 03:36 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I placed a pic in Dahb's hilt thread here... http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index....threadid=10923 Comments will be translated for you

15th November 2006, 11:50 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	It 's oval x-section style, found in the northern part of Thailand. We are going to classify this style as an oval hilt family. One guy said that the wooden ones are copies of a silver one. And one guy suggested that the style might be inspired by japanese one. We still don't know about the carved one. One one guy mentioned that the style could be burmese.

16th November 2006, 04:29 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	According Fraser-Lu, the fine, pierced ivory carving is a style characteristic of Lower Burma, originating in Moulmien (just above the Malay Peninsula) but now done in Rangoon, the Moulmien industry having died out. Fraser-Lu, "Burmese Crafts," p. 114. According to Egerton, ivory carving in high-relief was a Shan style. Egerton, "An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms and Those of Nepal, Burma, Thailand and Malaya," p. 85. This, of course, does not tell us whether or not a high-relief carving style is/was found further south, but many (if not most) of the non-pierced, high-relief handles I have seen are on Shan dha, and the pierced styles on Burman dha. Shan dha Burman dha

17th November 2006, 11:35 AM	#9
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	hi! everyone Thank you all for your replies. I also found out the subject was kalmasapada carrying Sutasoma. For your info these handles have been brought back in Europe in the 30's. Where I'm mixed, it's the ethnic attribution. On one side I have "Metro Kachin" and the other I have "sham". not beeing a specialist of this region, i don't even know if they are the same people, close neighbours or from distant regions.

18th November 2006, 08:15 AM	#12
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi! everyone It's even better with the pic that I hadn't the last time.(thank you mark) And thank you Ian for the explanations. I promise to keep you posted on this collection. Best regards Cedric

19th November 2006, 04:19 AM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I still waiting for pics of the silver one and I will re-post all pics in a new thread.