Nimcha with european blade.

Ascalon · 20th June 2009, 02:03 PM

I will appreciate any suggestions on this blade age and/or origin.

Thanks

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2009, 04:42 AM

Amazing! 74 views on this, and not a peep !!!
I need to find nimcha notes, but I will try to find an answer Ascalon. It is of course a trade blade, but the 'London' stamp is most unusual along with the multiple stamps arranged in some resemblance to such marks seen in hallmark fashion on silver hilts.

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 23rd June 2009, 05:08 AM

It is not unusual for these to have European blades.

Origin: Morocco

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2009, 07:59 AM

Trying to find notes and references on hand, it seems that these 'Moroccan sa'if' (commonly termed 'nimchas' by collectors) actually date often well into the 17th century. There was always considerable conflict with British merchant vessels being attacked and plundered by the fabled Barbary Pirates, and certainly many weapons were acquired.

However, there was equally a considerable import of weapons, especially blades, into Morocco from these times throughout the 19th century. In looking at many examples of 'nimchas' which of course carry the traditional multiquilloned hilts and mounts, the blades reflect many sources, and many forms of which most are European. It seems that the sabre type blades as seen here were not the only blades mounted, but straight blades were as well.

Most of the sabre type blades seem to range from hollow ground cavalry blades of the 19th century, to triple fullered types typically believed unmarked and from Solingen. This quadruple fuller seems atypical and seems European, but does not correspond to English blades I have seen.
It does seem late 18th to early 19th century.

While it seems that there were some blade making centers in Morocco, it would seem more for knives and daggers, while sword blades were mostly European imports. It would appear that blades were given a rather wide range of spurious identities alluding to the quality European makers of blades known and the armourers were adept at interpreting these. We know that ANDREA FERARA marked blades and examples with sickle marks and even the word GENOA spuriously stamped are found in many nimchas which seem to be of these times.

On some of these blades three crosses appear on triple fullered blades just below the fullers, and in roughly the same location as the stamp on this sword. On the obverse side is found the familiar crescent moon.
Although I have never seen a stamp such as this with the word LONDON stamped, it does not rule out possible stamping by native armourers, who as noted, appear to have become adept as creating such stamps. The triple crowns recall the three cross arrangement with British style, and as noted, not consistant with stamps I have seen on any English blades, appearing quite spurious from what I can see.

This is what I would believe at this point with what information I have at hand, and as always, hope somebody might have information on British blades with such a stamp. The style of lettering certainly does 'look' British! but in the late 18th century, blades were stamped with makers name, as well as acceptance marks, and not 'exported' as far as I know, commercially.

All best regards,
Jim

Ascalon · 23rd June 2009, 01:23 PM

Thank you very much Jim.
I have another nimcha with classic mark.
But the blade of the first nimcha was unknow me.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2009, 02:43 AM

Hi Ascalon,
Sorry I missed this one you added. The blade on this is an example of commonly seen cabalistic symbols applied on European trade blades, typically Solingen products of the 18th century. In the 18th century, there was a distinct increase in talismanic symbolism applied to blades that seems to have evolved largely out of the symbolism used on hunting sword blades. Many of these blades of course influenced markings on native blades in degree, but this is European.
As always, these blades were traded and refurbished many times over the years as the condition of the hilts diminished, and these mounts are most likely 19th century, probably latter. It is always hard to say from photos and without actually handling the weapon. Classic example of the Moroccan sa'if, of course colloquially termed 'nimcha' by collectors.

It would be interesting to see various examples of these posted with the many variations of markings found on the blades, which seem to have been invariably imported, and often marked it would appear by various armourers who mounted the blades.

Hopefully others holding examples of these will post them here and we might get together some comprehensive discussion going.

All the best,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 26th June 2009, 03:06 AM

I'd just like to say, thanks Ascalon for posting this, and thank you Battara and Jim McDougall for replying informatively. I know virtually nothing about Moroccan sa'if / nimchas, and less about Moroccan history and its relation to Europe... but I learn a lot from such posts. I too hope others find their way here and perhaps share their photos and knowledge.

Rick · 26th June 2009, 03:26 AM

Wondering how many times I should post this .........

What I find interesting is the knucklebow construction ..
Either it is forged in a right angle; or made from two pieces joined at the right angle with a flared pin .
Wazzup ??
Different styles ?
Eras ?
Tribes ?

Mark on the blade forte seems to be un-ID'ed European .

Blade is a straight backsword; late 17th-early 18thC. ??

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2009, 05:34 AM

Thanks very much Kukulz!

Hey Rick! Thanks for posting this one again

as it really has some interesting features. It would seem of course that these Moroccan sa'if were likely hilted in various workshops, but I'm not sure that enough comprehensive research has been done on these to establish any sort of tribal, regional or period consistancy. I would hope that maybe here we could gather enough data to establish some categorization, that is with enough entries....which is why I hope others join in.
I know there are a lot of guys out there with at least one nimcha...and if everyone shares thier example we could get a good run at it!

The hilt on yours is most unusual in that it seems to be of components in the knuckleguard rather than a single piece with the crossguard, quillon assembly. The brass support strap at the pommel seems unusual as well.

I remember puzzling over this obviously aged and patinated marking on what seems to be a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade. As I recall we were trying to determine what marking this might be. After the research I have been working on, mostly keyed by the European blade on a nimcha blade illustrated in Briggs (Plate XVII) I noticed the stamp type cartouche in this exact location on the blade, appearing to have Arabic characters. In reviewing a number of other nimcha blades, many of the had stamps copying crosses, crescent moon and various other similar cartouche type circles with lettering in this same location. It would seem that these must have been armourers stamps with either Arabic cartouche or varying interpretations of 'quality' or talismanic stamps added to either captured or trade blades.

Since your blade seems to have had the stamp added at an early date, consistant with the age of the blade, it would seem to suggest the practice of adding these presumed armourers stamps or markings must have been carried out for quite some time. We know that the raids on merchant ships as well as diplomatic relations and trade between Morocco and England were well established in the 17th century, and activity continued into the 20th century, so rehilting of these old blades probably took place many times.

Best regards,
Jim

20th June 2009, 02:03 PM	#1
Ascalon Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: France Posts: 45	Nimcha with european blade. I will appreciate any suggestions on this blade age and/or origin. Thanks

23rd June 2009, 04:42 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Amazing! 74 views on this, and not a peep !!! I need to find nimcha notes, but I will try to find an answer Ascalon. It is of course a trade blade, but the 'London' stamp is most unusual along with the multiple stamps arranged in some resemblance to such marks seen in hallmark fashion on silver hilts. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd June 2009 at 07:28 AM.

26th June 2009, 03:26 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Wondering how many times I should post this ......... What I find interesting is the knucklebow construction .. Either it is forged in a right angle; or made from two pieces joined at the right angle with a flared pin . Wazzup ?? Different styles ? Eras ? Tribes ? Mark on the blade forte seems to be un-ID'ed European . Blade is a straight backsword; late 17th-early 18thC. ?? Attached Images

23rd June 2009, 05:08 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	It is not unusual for these to have European blades. Origin: Morocco

23rd June 2009, 07:59 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Trying to find notes and references on hand, it seems that these 'Moroccan sa'if' (commonly termed 'nimchas' by collectors) actually date often well into the 17th century. There was always considerable conflict with British merchant vessels being attacked and plundered by the fabled Barbary Pirates, and certainly many weapons were acquired. However, there was equally a considerable import of weapons, especially blades, into Morocco from these times throughout the 19th century. In looking at many examples of 'nimchas' which of course carry the traditional multiquilloned hilts and mounts, the blades reflect many sources, and many forms of which most are European. It seems that the sabre type blades as seen here were not the only blades mounted, but straight blades were as well. Most of the sabre type blades seem to range from hollow ground cavalry blades of the 19th century, to triple fullered types typically believed unmarked and from Solingen. This quadruple fuller seems atypical and seems European, but does not correspond to English blades I have seen. It does seem late 18th to early 19th century. While it seems that there were some blade making centers in Morocco, it would seem more for knives and daggers, while sword blades were mostly European imports. It would appear that blades were given a rather wide range of spurious identities alluding to the quality European makers of blades known and the armourers were adept at interpreting these. We know that ANDREA FERARA marked blades and examples with sickle marks and even the word GENOA spuriously stamped are found in many nimchas which seem to be of these times. On some of these blades three crosses appear on triple fullered blades just below the fullers, and in roughly the same location as the stamp on this sword. On the obverse side is found the familiar crescent moon. Although I have never seen a stamp such as this with the word LONDON stamped, it does not rule out possible stamping by native armourers, who as noted, appear to have become adept as creating such stamps. The triple crowns recall the three cross arrangement with British style, and as noted, not consistant with stamps I have seen on any English blades, appearing quite spurious from what I can see. This is what I would believe at this point with what information I have at hand, and as always, hope somebody might have information on British blades with such a stamp. The style of lettering certainly does 'look' British! but in the late 18th century, blades were stamped with makers name, as well as acceptance marks, and not 'exported' as far as I know, commercially. All best regards, Jim

23rd June 2009, 01:23 PM	#5
Ascalon Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: France Posts: 45	Thank you very much Jim. I have another nimcha with classic mark. But the blade of the first nimcha was unknow me.

26th June 2009, 02:43 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Ascalon, Sorry I missed this one you added. The blade on this is an example of commonly seen cabalistic symbols applied on European trade blades, typically Solingen products of the 18th century. In the 18th century, there was a distinct increase in talismanic symbolism applied to blades that seems to have evolved largely out of the symbolism used on hunting sword blades. Many of these blades of course influenced markings on native blades in degree, but this is European. As always, these blades were traded and refurbished many times over the years as the condition of the hilts diminished, and these mounts are most likely 19th century, probably latter. It is always hard to say from photos and without actually handling the weapon. Classic example of the Moroccan sa'if, of course colloquially termed 'nimcha' by collectors. It would be interesting to see various examples of these posted with the many variations of markings found on the blades, which seem to have been invariably imported, and often marked it would appear by various armourers who mounted the blades. Hopefully others holding examples of these will post them here and we might get together some comprehensive discussion going. All the best, Jim

26th June 2009, 03:06 AM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'd just like to say, thanks Ascalon for posting this, and thank you Battara and Jim McDougall for replying informatively. I know virtually nothing about Moroccan sa'if / nimchas, and less about Moroccan history and its relation to Europe... but I learn a lot from such posts. I too hope others find their way here and perhaps share their photos and knowledge.

26th June 2009, 05:34 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks very much Kukulz! Hey Rick! Thanks for posting this one again as it really has some interesting features. It would seem of course that these Moroccan sa'if were likely hilted in various workshops, but I'm not sure that enough comprehensive research has been done on these to establish any sort of tribal, regional or period consistancy. I would hope that maybe here we could gather enough data to establish some categorization, that is with enough entries....which is why I hope others join in. I know there are a lot of guys out there with at least one nimcha...and if everyone shares thier example we could get a good run at it! The hilt on yours is most unusual in that it seems to be of components in the knuckleguard rather than a single piece with the crossguard, quillon assembly. The brass support strap at the pommel seems unusual as well. I remember puzzling over this obviously aged and patinated marking on what seems to be a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade. As I recall we were trying to determine what marking this might be. After the research I have been working on, mostly keyed by the European blade on a nimcha blade illustrated in Briggs (Plate XVII) I noticed the stamp type cartouche in this exact location on the blade, appearing to have Arabic characters. In reviewing a number of other nimcha blades, many of the had stamps copying crosses, crescent moon and various other similar cartouche type circles with lettering in this same location. It would seem that these must have been armourers stamps with either Arabic cartouche or varying interpretations of 'quality' or talismanic stamps added to either captured or trade blades. Since your blade seems to have had the stamp added at an early date, consistant with the age of the blade, it would seem to suggest the practice of adding these presumed armourers stamps or markings must have been carried out for quite some time. We know that the raids on merchant ships as well as diplomatic relations and trade between Morocco and England were well established in the 17th century, and activity continued into the 20th century, so rehilting of these old blades probably took place many times. Best regards, Jim