another kris ( Lanti ) for comment

RhysMichael · 28th July 2005, 09:07 PM

Hi
All the attention in recent treads on kris made me want to post some better pictures of the one I have to get comments from those here who know far more about it than I do

Lew · 28th July 2005, 10:00 PM

Very nice kris you have there. I think it is an older blade and the baca baca seems to a later add on but I am not 100 percent sure.

Lew

kai · 29th July 2005, 01:17 AM

Hi Michael,

Nice one - I like the hilt! Any intentions to polish up the silver work? Could you please post a pic of the pommel?

Maranao.

About turn of century? (Just guessing to get the experts going...

)

Regards,
Kai

Federico · 29th July 2005, 06:31 AM

I agree that at least according to the Bob Cato trunk theory, this blade would be Maranao (has the Maranao bulge). Though after handling some strange pieces lately, I am starting to wonder how well that Maranao/Maguindanao disctinction can really hold.

As for dating, everytime I say pre-1930 many people assume that Im saying the piece is 1930, when in fact I am just saying all I know is that since it has a separate gangya, then it at least was made be 1930, how far before I have no idea. For all I know it could have been made in 1801. In his book Moro swords, he has some more dating info on Maguindanaoan pieces between 1900-20 and 1920-40, but well that only applies to Maguindanaoan pieces. Anyways, there is always the idea as time went by the swords got bigger, so the longer/thicker one could try assuming that means newer (I know a number of people who are dead certain of this). But then there is always that guy in 1801 who wanted a huge sword. My own gut feeling on this piece is that Kai is right, and it is early American period eg. 1900-1920, but that is just a gut feeling, and not something I would put money on.

Oh well just the .0002 cents of another hobbiest

Spunjer · 29th July 2005, 02:01 PM

...of course hilts are not surefire indicator, but the artwork has a strong maranao flavor. the crud cake in the handle looks like it's saying, " let's get down and dirty!". would like to do an CSI type analysis test on that baby...

btw, what are the measurements???

Battara · 30th July 2005, 12:48 PM

Nice puppy (woof!

). I like the silver work. I don't think the baca-baca is a later add on, though I do think it is of either white metal or a very low grade silver as opposed to the rest of the silver hilt.

kai · 31st July 2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I don't think the baca-baca is a later add on, though I do think it is of either white metal or a very low grade silver as opposed to the rest of the silver hilt.

I'd have guessed at brass? At least the copper corrosion is obvious...

BTW, the greenish copper oxides should clean easily (without removing the patina).

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 1st August 2005, 12:44 PM

White metal is sometimes called white brass. A very low grade silver alloy could also give a greenish patina as well.

kai · 1st August 2005, 08:45 PM

Thanks, Battara. It looked yellowish to start with but on a closer look its left tip seems to be rubbed clean and the raw material seems silvery/white indeed.

BTW, do you know which composition the local low grade silver alloys have (had)?

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 2nd August 2005, 03:35 PM

Low grade alloy silver was mainly composed of 60%silver or more and 40%copper or less. The greater the copper content, the darker, harder, and more easily oxidized the metal becomes. Coin silver with 80% silver and 20% copper is harder and darker than, say, sterling silver with 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper (Note: by darker I assume that the metals in question have been cleaned, which, BTW raises the value in this case and makes it look shiny

).

Federico · 5th August 2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

...of course hilts are not surefire indicator, but the artwork has a strong maranao flavor. the crud cake in the handle looks like it's saying, " let's get down and dirty!". would like to do an CSI type analysis test on that baby...

btw, what are the measurements???

Well one thing to remember, sometimes Maranao did the fittings for Sulu blades.

RhysMichael · 5th August 2005, 01:21 AM

sorry for the delay and thanks for all the info
I will post the measurements this weekend

Spunjer · 5th August 2005, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Well one thing to remember, sometimes Maranao did the fittings for Sulu blades.

didn't know that, federico, thanks. those upturned C with dots in the middle engravings on the handle remind me so much of what i see that comes out of tugaya...

kino · 5th August 2005, 02:36 AM

Rhys, Do you think this came out of the same factory??
Long lost sibling perhaps???

Spunjer · 5th August 2005, 03:05 AM

WOW! what are the chances, huh? the similarities are stunning: from the handle deco, gangya, etc. same town?

kai · 5th August 2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Do you think this came out of the same factory?? Long lost sibling perhaps???

Nah, definitely not siblings IMHO. I'd posit that there seem to be several decades between their birthdays...

[Kino, there is no separate gangya, is it?]

If you compare them closely, there are quite a few differences especially with the file work on the lower gangya as well as with the okir design.

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 5th August 2005, 05:48 PM

Here's one that belongs to this family. It's got a 26.25" blade & by far the heaviest kris I own. It does have a seperate ganya, as I suspect Kino's has also. The file work seems to be closer to the one RhysMichael posted, most notebly, the bulge under the trunk. The stampings on the metal bands is very simular to the 2 already posted. There is a pomel plate at the end. Suspect it shared some of the same craftsmen that worked on the other two.

kino · 5th August 2005, 11:54 PM

I would have to say that this is one good looking family of Kris'.

Kai, my example does have a separate guard.

Closeup of the blade.

Spunjer · 6th August 2005, 12:12 AM

...cool family reunion. the filework on the gangya reminds me of the mosque's roof sillouette.

that's some wicked lamination...

Bill · 6th August 2005, 01:31 AM

Re: the sword I posted, there is sort of a small "Y" etched off center & very close to the blade tip (both sides). I have another sword that is a few inches shorter, well made, nice file work & also heavy; that has the same "Y". I suspect the same smith made both swords. Mackers mark or talisman? Anyone else have that mark?

RhysMichael · 7th August 2005, 07:38 PM

To the uninformed ( read me ) those do look much like my sword
here are the measurements
OAL 27 3/8 inches
blade length 23 5/8 inches
with at widest part of gangya 5 3/8 inches
width at the base of the blade 1 3/4 inches
withs 1 inche from tip 1 1/2 inch

28th July 2005, 09:07 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	another kris ( Lanti ) for comment Hi All the attention in recent treads on kris made me want to post some better pictures of the one I have to get comments from those here who know far more about it than I do

5th August 2005, 02:36 AM	#14
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Rhys, Do you think this came out of the same factory?? Long lost sibling perhaps??? Attached Images

5th August 2005, 05:48 PM	#17
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Here's one that belongs to this family. It's got a 26.25" blade & by far the heaviest kris I own. It does have a seperate ganya, as I suspect Kino's has also. The file work seems to be closer to the one RhysMichael posted, most notebly, the bulge under the trunk. The stampings on the metal bands is very simular to the 2 already posted. There is a pomel plate at the end. Suspect it shared some of the same craftsmen that worked on the other two. Attached Images

5th August 2005, 11:54 PM	#18
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	I would have to say that this is one good looking family of Kris'. Kai, my example does have a separate guard. Closeup of the blade. Attached Images

28th July 2005, 10:00 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Very nice kris you have there. I think it is an older blade and the baca baca seems to a later add on but I am not 100 percent sure. Lew

29th July 2005, 01:17 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hi Michael, Nice one - I like the hilt! Any intentions to polish up the silver work? Could you please post a pic of the pommel? Maranao. About turn of century? (Just guessing to get the experts going... ) Regards, Kai

29th July 2005, 06:31 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I agree that at least according to the Bob Cato trunk theory, this blade would be Maranao (has the Maranao bulge). Though after handling some strange pieces lately, I am starting to wonder how well that Maranao/Maguindanao disctinction can really hold. As for dating, everytime I say pre-1930 many people assume that Im saying the piece is 1930, when in fact I am just saying all I know is that since it has a separate gangya, then it at least was made be 1930, how far before I have no idea. For all I know it could have been made in 1801. In his book Moro swords, he has some more dating info on Maguindanaoan pieces between 1900-20 and 1920-40, but well that only applies to Maguindanaoan pieces. Anyways, there is always the idea as time went by the swords got bigger, so the longer/thicker one could try assuming that means newer (I know a number of people who are dead certain of this). But then there is always that guy in 1801 who wanted a huge sword. My own gut feeling on this piece is that Kai is right, and it is early American period eg. 1900-1920, but that is just a gut feeling, and not something I would put money on. Oh well just the .0002 cents of another hobbiest

29th July 2005, 02:01 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	...of course hilts are not surefire indicator, but the artwork has a strong maranao flavor. the crud cake in the handle looks like it's saying, " let's get down and dirty!". would like to do an CSI type analysis test on that baby... btw, what are the measurements???

30th July 2005, 12:48 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Nice puppy (woof! ). I like the silver work. I don't think the baca-baca is a later add on, though I do think it is of either white metal or a very low grade silver as opposed to the rest of the silver hilt.

1st August 2005, 12:44 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	White metal is sometimes called white brass. A very low grade silver alloy could also give a greenish patina as well.

1st August 2005, 08:45 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Thanks, Battara. It looked yellowish to start with but on a closer look its left tip seems to be rubbed clean and the raw material seems silvery/white indeed. BTW, do you know which composition the local low grade silver alloys have (had)? Regards, Kai

2nd August 2005, 03:35 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Low grade alloy silver was mainly composed of 60%silver or more and 40%copper or less. The greater the copper content, the darker, harder, and more easily oxidized the metal becomes. Coin silver with 80% silver and 20% copper is harder and darker than, say, sterling silver with 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper (Note: by darker I assume that the metals in question have been cleaned, which, BTW raises the value in this case and makes it look shiny ).

5th August 2005, 01:21 AM	#12
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	sorry for the delay and thanks for all the info I will post the measurements this weekend

5th August 2005, 03:05 AM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	WOW! what are the chances, huh? the similarities are stunning: from the handle deco, gangya, etc. same town?

6th August 2005, 12:12 AM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	...cool family reunion. the filework on the gangya reminds me of the mosque's roof sillouette. that's some wicked lamination...

6th August 2005, 01:31 AM	#20
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Re: the sword I posted, there is sort of a small "Y" etched off center & very close to the blade tip (both sides). I have another sword that is a few inches shorter, well made, nice file work & also heavy; that has the same "Y". I suspect the same smith made both swords. Mackers mark or talisman? Anyone else have that mark?

7th August 2005, 07:38 PM	#21
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	To the uninformed ( read me ) those do look much like my sword here are the measurements OAL 27 3/8 inches blade length 23 5/8 inches with at widest part of gangya 5 3/8 inches width at the base of the blade 1 3/4 inches withs 1 inche from tip 1 1/2 inch