BABY KASKARA ???

thinreadline · 8th December 2010, 01:56 PM

Help please what is this meant to be.. is it a tourist item specially made to fit easily into a suitcase ? Any ideas on the lion mark deeply stamped into the blade ? The sword is 21 inches long overall , with a grip which corresponds well to the grip of a full sized weapon. . The quality of workmanship and materials is very good indeed and the blade flexes well .. it is not a lump of what in England we call 'monkey metal' !

A.alnakkas · 8th December 2010, 02:27 PM

it could be a child's Kaskara maybe?

Edster · 8th December 2010, 11:49 PM

I think I recall a reference to a small sword made for the Kalifa's son during the Sudanese Mahdiya. There was an arsenal in Omdurman. Just finished reading again Theobald's "The Mahdiya". But more likely the reference was from Slatin's account of his captivity under the Kalifa. Also, I have a kaskara with a replica of the lion (same shape) scratchd in the blade along with arabic inscriptions and a moon face and two five pointed stars. That particular sword is from Kassala and is likely from the Mahdiya period.

Wouldn't classify it as a tourist blade due to the Lion stamp. Also. th grip is wraped in the Atbara style.

Best regards,
Edster

Lew · 9th December 2010, 03:34 AM

Actually this most likely a boys kaskara if you look at the cross guard it has either been shortened or made smaller. The blade has also been shortened probably made from a broken blade? Here is mine this one is definitely 19th century the blade is 17th century.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Boys+kaskara

thinreadline · 9th December 2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Actually this most likely a boys kaskara if you look at the cross guard it has either been shortened or made smaller. The blade has also been shortened probably made from a broken blade? Here is mine this one is definitely 19th century the blade is 17th century.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Boys+kaskara

Interesting , and what a fantastic sword you have.

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2010, 06:14 PM

I agree with Ed, the presence of this mark would lead more toward a sword intended for regular wear and use. In Briggs, one example of a kaskara with this type rampant lion is from Aswara, though I would hesitate to assign the mark to a specific location. As noted by Ed, these swords in latter Mahdist period and beyond were primarily produced in Kasalla regions, and according to Reed, were often termed al Kasallawi (from Kasalla) as opposed to the usual term sa'if.

Interesting note Ed, on the wrap being of Atbara style, and I hadn't known of that distinction before, thanks very much!!

Regarding the 'childs sword' perspective. Though I know there are many instances in ethnographic weapons of swords produced for the youngsters, I am not sure that I would agree that any weapon reduced in size from the characteristic types necessarily has to be for a child. Certainly it would have been the case as Ed noted, for a young boy of rank or key standing to have such a sword provided for him, but I dont believe it was a universal practice.

I would suggest that this indeed may have been a sword with a broken blade remounted, but it would seem to me that unless the blade was a treasured heirloom, a new blade would have been subsitituted. Of course the use of broken blades for use in weapons intended for close quarters combat is well established with dirks such as in many other cultures and naval cases but those instances of such use of blades are usually incidental.

The rebated tip on this sword is unusual for a kaskara, and is of course more common on takoubas. This type blade tip is for slashing cuts as I understand and suggests this weapon must have been intended for such use, or it may be argued that it is rounded and blunt for use of a child of course.

It seems to me that the size of certain type swords must have been closely guaged of course to intent for use, as we have been discussing, and that I have seen many cases where certain types are relatively diminutive to those of same type usually seen. For example, I have seen British M1796 light cavalry sabres for officers much smaller and decorative than the usual sabres of ths type, the blades often considerably shorter. In North Africa, the well lnown 'flyssa' ranges in size in virtually all degrees from knife size to the extremely long types. In the northern parts of the Sudan, especially in Dongola, the triangular type broadswords are essentially more like huge knives (like the 'Khyber') or basically short swords.

I am more inclined to think this is a heirloom blade refitted for wear as an accoutrement with more ease, as the normal size kaskaras are of course quite awkward. Perhaps this would have been more suitable in a more metropolitan environment, like the Chinese daos that look the same as thier standard size counterparts, except for size. This was particularly due to the close quarters of crowded streets. I think this may more often be the case, than the oft presumed attribution of smaller swords to use for children. A similar case has been discussed over the years for the smaller grips and hilts on many Indian swords, which, according to numerous references were intended to better suit the smaller hands often characteristic in many of the Indian populations.

All best regards,
Jim

Lew · 9th December 2010, 07:17 PM

Jim

Here is an interesting observation. I measured the length between the rings on my smaller kaskara and it's only six inches the belt is small only about eight inches so compare this to my normal size kaskara where the rings are nine inches across but the belt about twenty four inches long. The longer strap allows the wearer to wear the sword tucked under his left shoulder the strap fits over the head. The small strap on the other sword would be impossible to wear the sword in this manner even for a small boy. So maybe these smaller kaskara are as you said family heirlooms?

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2010, 10:29 PM

Thanks very much Lew, those are excellent and most pertinant observations, and it really is interesting to try to perceive the varying manners in which these kaskara were worn. The Hadendoa warriors during the Mahdiya often wore the full length kaskaras across thier back, while I have seen photos of mounted warriors wearing them in a shoulder type sling under thier arm (I believe Baggara). There are cases of the full length kaskara worn under the saddle, very much as in the European pallasche/estoc of earlier times, and a shorter Ottoman hilted type sabre. These seem to be more related to regions under Ottoman control as the individual I have seen pictured like this is wearing a fez.
There are much shorter shamshir type sabres with Ottoman style hilts, one I have seen with a brass embossed lozenge pattern relief hilt and crossguard having the kaskara type langet. The scabbard mounted in the typical flared end. These must have been worn in the same under the arm fashion.

All the best,
Jim

8th December 2010, 01:56 PM	#1
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	BABY KASKARA ??? Help please what is this meant to be.. is it a tourist item specially made to fit easily into a suitcase ? Any ideas on the lion mark deeply stamped into the blade ? The sword is 21 inches long overall , with a grip which corresponds well to the grip of a full sized weapon. . The quality of workmanship and materials is very good indeed and the blade flexes well .. it is not a lump of what in England we call 'monkey metal' ! Attached Images

8th December 2010, 11:49 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	I think I recall a reference to a small sword made for the Kalifa's son during the Sudanese Mahdiya. There was an arsenal in Omdurman. Just finished reading again Theobald's "The Mahdiya". But more likely the reference was from Slatin's account of his captivity under the Kalifa. Also, I have a kaskara with a replica of the lion (same shape) scratchd in the blade along with arabic inscriptions and a moon face and two five pointed stars. That particular sword is from Kassala and is likely from the Mahdiya period. Wouldn't classify it as a tourist blade due to the Lion stamp. Also. th grip is wraped in the Atbara style. Best regards, Edster Last edited by Edster; 9th December 2010 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Additional memory

9th December 2010, 03:34 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Actually this most likely a boys kaskara if you look at the cross guard it has either been shortened or made smaller. The blade has also been shortened probably made from a broken blade? Here is mine this one is definitely 19th century the blade is 17th century.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Boys+kaskara Last edited by Lew; 9th December 2010 at 03:50 AM.

8th December 2010, 02:27 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	it could be a child's Kaskara maybe?

9th December 2010, 06:14 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	I agree with Ed, the presence of this mark would lead more toward a sword intended for regular wear and use. In Briggs, one example of a kaskara with this type rampant lion is from Aswara, though I would hesitate to assign the mark to a specific location. As noted by Ed, these swords in latter Mahdist period and beyond were primarily produced in Kasalla regions, and according to Reed, were often termed al Kasallawi (from Kasalla) as opposed to the usual term sa'if. Interesting note Ed, on the wrap being of Atbara style, and I hadn't known of that distinction before, thanks very much!! Regarding the 'childs sword' perspective. Though I know there are many instances in ethnographic weapons of swords produced for the youngsters, I am not sure that I would agree that any weapon reduced in size from the characteristic types necessarily has to be for a child. Certainly it would have been the case as Ed noted, for a young boy of rank or key standing to have such a sword provided for him, but I dont believe it was a universal practice. I would suggest that this indeed may have been a sword with a broken blade remounted, but it would seem to me that unless the blade was a treasured heirloom, a new blade would have been subsitituted. Of course the use of broken blades for use in weapons intended for close quarters combat is well established with dirks such as in many other cultures and naval cases but those instances of such use of blades are usually incidental. The rebated tip on this sword is unusual for a kaskara, and is of course more common on takoubas. This type blade tip is for slashing cuts as I understand and suggests this weapon must have been intended for such use, or it may be argued that it is rounded and blunt for use of a child of course. It seems to me that the size of certain type swords must have been closely guaged of course to intent for use, as we have been discussing, and that I have seen many cases where certain types are relatively diminutive to those of same type usually seen. For example, I have seen British M1796 light cavalry sabres for officers much smaller and decorative than the usual sabres of ths type, the blades often considerably shorter. In North Africa, the well lnown 'flyssa' ranges in size in virtually all degrees from knife size to the extremely long types. In the northern parts of the Sudan, especially in Dongola, the triangular type broadswords are essentially more like huge knives (like the 'Khyber') or basically short swords. I am more inclined to think this is a heirloom blade refitted for wear as an accoutrement with more ease, as the normal size kaskaras are of course quite awkward. Perhaps this would have been more suitable in a more metropolitan environment, like the Chinese daos that look the same as thier standard size counterparts, except for size. This was particularly due to the close quarters of crowded streets. I think this may more often be the case, than the oft presumed attribution of smaller swords to use for children. A similar case has been discussed over the years for the smaller grips and hilts on many Indian swords, which, according to numerous references were intended to better suit the smaller hands often characteristic in many of the Indian populations. All best regards, Jim

9th December 2010, 07:17 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim Here is an interesting observation. I measured the length between the rings on my smaller kaskara and it's only six inches the belt is small only about eight inches so compare this to my normal size kaskara where the rings are nine inches across but the belt about twenty four inches long. The longer strap allows the wearer to wear the sword tucked under his left shoulder the strap fits over the head. The small strap on the other sword would be impossible to wear the sword in this manner even for a small boy. So maybe these smaller kaskara are as you said family heirlooms?

9th December 2010, 10:29 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thanks very much Lew, those are excellent and most pertinant observations, and it really is interesting to try to perceive the varying manners in which these kaskara were worn. The Hadendoa warriors during the Mahdiya often wore the full length kaskaras across thier back, while I have seen photos of mounted warriors wearing them in a shoulder type sling under thier arm (I believe Baggara). There are cases of the full length kaskara worn under the saddle, very much as in the European pallasche/estoc of earlier times, and a shorter Ottoman hilted type sabre. These seem to be more related to regions under Ottoman control as the individual I have seen pictured like this is wearing a fez. There are much shorter shamshir type sabres with Ottoman style hilts, one I have seen with a brass embossed lozenge pattern relief hilt and crossguard having the kaskara type langet. The scabbard mounted in the typical flared end. These must have been worn in the same under the arm fashion. All the best, Jim