Tulwar with a hidden text

Jens Nordlunde · 29th January 2007, 04:55 PM

The tulwar shown below is interesting for several reasons, first be course of the special decoration of the hilt, the gold decoration is framed with silver, and secondly be course of a text hidden under the quillons. The blade is broad and flexible, but not heavy. The text reads, 'this sword will destroy anything to dust'.
Total length 103 cm. Length of blade 88 cm.

Flavio · 29th January 2007, 05:33 PM

Hi Jens, simply beautiful!

S.Al-Anizi · 29th January 2007, 08:48 PM

Very nice, especially the blade, and the fact it hasnt been resharpened alot, or even at all

Joe · 29th January 2007, 10:17 PM

"Destroy anything to dust?"

With a good beefy blade like that, I believe it.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2007, 04:19 AM

Hi Jens,
Fantastic motif!!! I agree with Joe, that blade means business.
This decoration seems extremely unusual, it seems almost a herringbone type effect. Since the chevron patterns have key significance symbolically, and we know that there are key symbolisms in the floral patterns, I wonder what may be held in this one? It seems that often it is tempting for many to presume aesthetics are the only goal in such unusual motif, but with the weapons of India, there are often cleverly assigned symbolisms. That with the very intimidating message hidden beneath the quillons suggest there may be more.

The closest thing I can see typologically to the style of decoration as well as hilt form on this hilt would be that shown in Rawson (plate 44) which suggests that it is of Lahuri type, and probably early 19th c. The example shown in Rawson carries a floral theme, but distictively uses the bordering technique that outlines the features of the hilt.

Maybe we can find this type of 'herringbone' motif in other Indian art or metalwork?

All the best,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 30th January 2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The closest thing I can see typologically to the style of decoration as well as hilt form on this hilt would be that shown in Rawson (plate 44) which suggests that it is of Lahuri type, and probably early 19th c. The example shown in Rawson carries a floral theme, but distictively uses the bordering technique that outlines the features of the hilt.

Maybe we can find this type of 'herringbone' motif in other Indian art or metalwork?

All the best,
Jim

I believe this may also be a plant motif, albeit a stylized one. If you look closely, there's a thin line down the center of each stripe in the 'chevron'. I think they may be leaves, set in a geometric pattern.

I don't know the traditions of India, but in Viking culture runes inscribed on weapons weren't just names or descriptions, but were often active spells or charms to give the weapon more potency. Given the hidden nature of the inscription, is there any chance of the same being present here, a spell placed by the weaponsmaker to make the sword more deadly?

B.I · 30th January 2007, 09:15 AM

I remember a discussion with a Sikh collector, who came across as an authority. He told me the reason that Sikhs put their inscriptions on the inner knucklebow, and not on the blade (or a place of show) was because they fought the British in the 19thC, and by then, our technology in telescopic equipment was so advanced, that we could look across a battlefield, and pick out a leaders name on the blade, and single him out!
I was amazed at this insight. Not only at this individuals level of knowledge, but at the intelligence of his ancestors, and the keen eyesight of the British.

So Jens, maybe the placing of your inscriptions was so the owner could charge into a battlefield, pointing his sword forward and displaying this curse to dispell any telescope-carrying invader.

FenrisWolf · 30th January 2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

I remember a discussion with a Sikh collector, who came across as an authority. He told me the reason that Sikhs put their inscriptions on the inner knucklebow, and not on the blade (or a place of show) was because they fought the British in the 19thC, and by then, our technology in telescopic equipment was so advanced, that we could look across a battlefield, and pick out a leaders name on the blade, and single him out!
I was amazed at this insight. Not only at this individuals level of knowledge, but at the intelligence of his ancestors, and the keen eyesight of the British.

So Jens, maybe the placing of your inscriptions was so the owner could charge into a battlefield, pointing his sword forward and displaying this curse to dispell any telescope-carrying invader.

What's interesting is that according to your source this is a practice of the Sikh, since their religion specifically forbids them from trafficking in black magic. From a website on the Sikh religion:

Quote:

3.A Sikh should have no dealings with caste, black magic or superstitious practices, such as, the seeking of auspicious moments, echpses the practicd’of feeding Brahmins in the belief that the food will go to one’s ancestors. Ancestor-worship, fasting at differing phases of the moon, the wearing of sacred thread and similar rituals.

So apparently the inscription is a description of the quality of the blade, and not a charm meant to enhance it. Either way, a fine sword!

Jens Nordlunde · 30th January 2007, 03:28 PM

Thanks for the mails. It is of course easier for me, who sits with the tulwar, to have a close look, and I believe that it could very well be stylized leaves arranged in a chevron design. I have no doubt that a sword with a curse written on it was supposed to be more dangerous than one without a curse, so I think it worked like it did between the Vikings. We must remember that although some Vikings had changed religion, as well as some Indians had, their roots were still in the old religions, and trying to get protection from both religions, when going to battle, would no doubt have been very common. Some, no doubt, used the old designs, although the knowledge of what they meant had been forgotten, so to them it was a decoration, and others used it, still knowing the meaning.

Yes B.I, I agree fully with you, there is an immense amount of valuable knowledge out there – the only problem is to find it

.

B.I · 30th January 2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes B.I, I agree fully with you, there is an immense amount of valuable knowledge out there – the only problem is to find it

.

No problem at all, Jens, if you have a telescope!

katana · 30th January 2007, 08:57 PM

A very fine Tulwar Jens ....very nice indeed

Jens Nordlunde · 30th January 2007, 09:51 PM

Someone recently wrote on a keris forum a thing that made me think a bit. He wrote, and I quote from memory – the discussion was about the symbolic values.

‘If you want to know something about the symbolic value, you have to marry into one of the families which still knows about them, and even then you may not be told all.’

I do think, this tells us, that this knowledge is not easy for us to find, but somehow we will have to find it, to understand the weapons we collect the better.

Sikh_soldier · 2nd February 2007, 12:20 AM

very nice tulwar, very ornate hilt.

regarding the inscription, indeed sikhs do not have any association with black magic. Also, this text is not inscribed in Gurmukhi (or punjabi) which was the language of the sikhs at that time (as well as present)
Some of the sikh scriptures where written in sanskrit but this is not sanskrit either.
(pictures attached of sanskrit and gurmukhi alphabet)

29th January 2007, 04:55 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Tulwar with a hidden text The tulwar shown below is interesting for several reasons, first be course of the special decoration of the hilt, the gold decoration is framed with silver, and secondly be course of a text hidden under the quillons. The blade is broad and flexible, but not heavy. The text reads, 'this sword will destroy anything to dust'. Total length 103 cm. Length of blade 88 cm. Attached Images

30th January 2007, 04:19 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,897	Hi Jens, Fantastic motif!!! I agree with Joe, that blade means business. This decoration seems extremely unusual, it seems almost a herringbone type effect. Since the chevron patterns have key significance symbolically, and we know that there are key symbolisms in the floral patterns, I wonder what may be held in this one? It seems that often it is tempting for many to presume aesthetics are the only goal in such unusual motif, but with the weapons of India, there are often cleverly assigned symbolisms. That with the very intimidating message hidden beneath the quillons suggest there may be more. The closest thing I can see typologically to the style of decoration as well as hilt form on this hilt would be that shown in Rawson (plate 44) which suggests that it is of Lahuri type, and probably early 19th c. The example shown in Rawson carries a floral theme, but distictively uses the bordering technique that outlines the features of the hilt. Maybe we can find this type of 'herringbone' motif in other Indian art or metalwork? All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th January 2007 at 04:47 AM.

30th January 2007, 03:28 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the mails. It is of course easier for me, who sits with the tulwar, to have a close look, and I believe that it could very well be stylized leaves arranged in a chevron design. I have no doubt that a sword with a curse written on it was supposed to be more dangerous than one without a curse, so I think it worked like it did between the Vikings. We must remember that although some Vikings had changed religion, as well as some Indians had, their roots were still in the old religions, and trying to get protection from both religions, when going to battle, would no doubt have been very common. Some, no doubt, used the old designs, although the knowledge of what they meant had been forgotten, so to them it was a decoration, and others used it, still knowing the meaning. Yes B.I, I agree fully with you, there is an immense amount of valuable knowledge out there – the only problem is to find it.

2nd February 2007, 12:20 AM	#13
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	tulwar very nice tulwar, very ornate hilt. regarding the inscription, indeed sikhs do not have any association with black magic. Also, this text is not inscribed in Gurmukhi (or punjabi) which was the language of the sikhs at that time (as well as present) Some of the sikh scriptures where written in sanskrit but this is not sanskrit either. (pictures attached of sanskrit and gurmukhi alphabet) Attached Images

29th January 2007, 05:33 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jens, simply beautiful!

29th January 2007, 08:48 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Very nice, especially the blade, and the fact it hasnt been resharpened alot, or even at all

29th January 2007, 10:17 PM	#4
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	"Destroy anything to dust?" With a good beefy blade like that, I believe it.

30th January 2007, 09:15 AM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	I remember a discussion with a Sikh collector, who came across as an authority. He told me the reason that Sikhs put their inscriptions on the inner knucklebow, and not on the blade (or a place of show) was because they fought the British in the 19thC, and by then, our technology in telescopic equipment was so advanced, that we could look across a battlefield, and pick out a leaders name on the blade, and single him out! I was amazed at this insight. Not only at this individuals level of knowledge, but at the intelligence of his ancestors, and the keen eyesight of the British. So Jens, maybe the placing of your inscriptions was so the owner could charge into a battlefield, pointing his sword forward and displaying this curse to dispell any telescope-carrying invader.

30th January 2007, 08:57 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A very fine Tulwar Jens ....very nice indeed

30th January 2007, 09:51 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Someone recently wrote on a keris forum a thing that made me think a bit. He wrote, and I quote from memory – the discussion was about the symbolic values. ‘If you want to know something about the symbolic value, you have to marry into one of the families which still knows about them, and even then you may not be told all.’ I do think, this tells us, that this knowledge is not easy for us to find, but somehow we will have to find it, to understand the weapons we collect the better.