OT: Origin of Weaving

Rick · 3rd January 2005, 06:28 PM

I came across this piece in a box of old weavings and needlework from an old local estate sale .

It doesn't strike me as Native American

, does anyone recognize the style or culture that might have produced it ?

Size is 37" x 16" .

Montino Bourbon · 3rd January 2005, 06:40 PM

I'm not sure, but it could be from Bhutan or Tibet. I agree that it doesn't look meso-American, but I'm not absolutely sure.

Yannis · 3rd January 2005, 06:45 PM

Is it double edge blade?

Mark · 3rd January 2005, 07:28 PM

This commercial web site shows a lot of traditional textiles from various parts of SE Asia and environs. Maybe you can find a match there. Or send an e-mail to them and ask if they recognize it (they are very nice, and responsive).

Tribal Trappings

PS: Beautiful piece.

Andrew · 3rd January 2005, 07:58 PM

I agree with Mark's advice, Rick. Susan Stem at Tribal Trappings is extremely generous with her time and information.

I was recently looking through some books in my library, and spent some time glancing at Burmese hill tribe textiles, some of which this resembles. I'll look closer tonight.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd January 2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I'm not sure, but it could be from Bhutan or Tibet. I agree that it doesn't look meso-American, but I'm not absolutely sure.

Yes I know Andrew, this is not a weapon - but it is very interesting none the less. I won't say it is Indian, but it could be. The interesting part is, that they did use the same kind of decorations on textiles as on weapons!
Thank you for bringing this up Montino.

Regards

Jens

PS. Sorry Rick - you brought the topic up.

Rick · 3rd January 2005, 11:35 PM

Thanks all !
I have sent an inquiry to Tribal Trappings .
I've already looked through Form and Splendor , and the Tilllmann Collection without much luck .

No reason to apologize Jens .

Andrew · 4th January 2005, 03:26 AM

Rick, I think Susan may be able to help you. I can't find an exact match, but there are a number of tribes in Burma and Thailand that have very similar textile patterns in their traditional ensemble, including the Karen, Hmong and Lahu.

Here are the two books I have that feature similar textiles:

Paul and Elaine Lewis
Peoples of the Golden Triangle: Six tribes in Thailand
Thames and Hudson Ltd., UK, 1998
ISBN 0-500-97472-1

Richard K. Diran
The Vanishing Tribes of Burma
Amphoto Art, USA
ISBN 0-8174-5559-0

Radu Transylvanicus · 4th January 2005, 03:31 AM

Show us the needles, that would be more on theme ...

On a more semi-serious note, believe it or not, I perfectly remember a wall hanging that my grandma` displayed proudly on her summer kitchen, authentically transylvanian with some painted clay plates , that ,,small rectangles in a rhomboid" and the exact same ,,star,, were on it and i`ve seen them quiet regularly as a folkloric (peasant) motifs including national TV backround in Romania ... the material was a bit different but I am sure its not typical to any country or nation as separate ,,motif,, Other ,,eastearners,, have probably seen it too

My granma she only heard about five countries: Romania, Hungary, ,,America,, , France and Russia thats it , and she made that stuff ... The only Karen she knew was a next door neighboor , that was her name ...

Andrew · 4th January 2005, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Show us the needles, that would be more on theme ...

Be careful what you ask for, Radu.

VANDOO · 4th January 2005, 05:16 PM

I CAN'T PIN IT DOWN FOR YOU AS I HAVE SEEN MANY SIMULAR DESIGNS OVER A WIDE AREA. IT DOES LOOK LIKE IT WAS MADE BY HAND USING A BACKSTRAP LOOM, WHICH IS USED BY MANY TRIBES EVEN TODAY. GOOD LUCK

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th January 2005, 04:00 PM

I went through my books on Tai and non-Tai speaking peoples of Thailand and couldn't come up with a match either. My first thought when i saw it was the native peoples of Taiwan (they had a big display in the airpart 2 months ago). Now I'm intrigued, pleae let us know what you find out.

cylord21 · 16th January 2005, 04:16 AM

Found a match on one of the motif with the following description:
" Elaborate Persian (Hamadan) wool rug, with two borders in cream and green framing a central red ground with medallions; mulitcolored stylized flowers all over ".
Hope it is of help

Montino Bourbon · 16th January 2005, 09:00 AM

That particular motif, resembling an eight- or four-pointed or petaled flower, is found all over the world, on many objects from weavings to weapons and jewelry, and even in sand paintings. It goes by many names, including 'the four directions' and is a basic shamanic symbol. Each direction can also stand for a particular state of conciousness or one of a number of steps on a spiritual path. The symbolism is extensive, and occupies whole chapters in various ethnographic books. Because of its geometric and archetypal character, it's very easy to generate from a loom; but it's so old that it's even found in petroglyphs.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2005, 05:19 AM

I think Jens brings up an extremely important note, all forms of iconography and material culture may carry key symbols and markings that could apply to those found on weapons. I have found the answers to some blade markings on coins and it is known that Berber textiles and jewelry often have similar motif as found on thier weapons.
I'm really looking forward to finding out what this is!!
Best regards,
Jim

M.carter · 21st January 2005, 09:44 AM

Hello Rick,

What you have here is bedouin weaving, Sadu. This was used in making tents, saddles, pillows and many other stuff. Just Google image search 'Sadu Weaving'.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd December 2011, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Hello Rick,

What you have here is bedouin weaving, Sadu. This was used in making tents, saddles, pillows and many other stuff. Just Google image search 'Sadu Weaving'.

Salaams M.carter~ This is such an interesting topic effecting ethnographics all across the spectrum. I noticed in glancing through the reference that Dr Keireine Canavan had visited Oman but didn't pick up on an important detail~ That the weavers of Oman had almost lost their art form since nothing had been written down and with the advancing 21 st century the modern world was taking its toll on traditional artesans etc.. What happened was remarkable and down to one woman..A european lady called Gigi Crocker Jones who virtually single handedly took the Omani weaving situation by the scruff of the neck and rejuvenated the entire cottage industry ... She produced a brilliant book in arabic and english and saved the art from almost certain extinction.

On another note it sometimes surprises readers that geometric patterns crop up on Navajo Indian weaving seemingly similar to those off the silk road ~ in the early 20th C an enterprising individual transported samples of oriental weavings and rugs to the Navajo which were copied into their style to become whats known as Navajo Orientalist style.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A. G. Maisey · 4th December 2011, 09:28 PM

A surprising and very fitting post Rick.

In the societies of Maritime South East Asia, weaving is the female cultural balance to the weaponry and carving of the male side of society.

Place the two together and you have a culturally balanced presence.

Thank you for showing this.

Rick · 4th December 2011, 09:35 PM

Surprised me too mate .

A good subject to resurrect I guess .

Seems Ibrahiim has been rummaging through the basement .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th December 2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Surprised me too mate .

A good subject to resurrect I guess .

Seems Ibrahiim has been rummaging through the basement .

Salaams Rick~ Your thread is excellent ! I have been foraging about in the basement all week !! Its some basement .. Al Sedu or Kuwaiti Bedouin Weaving is quite a subject... I remembered my friends at Tareq Rajab Museum in Kuwait have a great section on Sedu work so I will post a few pictures soon.. I think this thread can run and run.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

Rick · 5th December 2011, 04:28 PM

I'm glad you're enjoying the archives Ibrahiim .

Post away !

Maybe Alan will post some batiks etc. for us to admire .

3rd January 2005, 06:28 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	OT: Origin of Weaving I came across this piece in a box of old weavings and needlework from an old local estate sale . It doesn't strike me as Native American , does anyone recognize the style or culture that might have produced it ? Size is 37" x 16" . Attached Images

4th January 2005, 03:31 AM	#9
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Show us the needles, that would be more on theme ... On a more semi-serious note, believe it or not, I perfectly remember a wall hanging that my grandma` displayed proudly on her summer kitchen, authentically transylvanian with some painted clay plates , that ,,small rectangles in a rhomboid" and the exact same ,,star,, were on it and i`ve seen them quiet regularly as a folkloric (peasant) motifs including national TV backround in Romania ... the material was a bit different but I am sure its not typical to any country or nation as separate ,,motif,, Other ,,eastearners,, have probably seen it too My granma she only heard about five countries: Romania, Hungary, ,,America,, , France and Russia thats it , and she made that stuff ... The only Karen she knew was a next door neighboor , that was her name ... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 4th January 2005 at 03:42 AM.

5th January 2005, 04:00 PM	#12
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Taiwanese? I went through my books on Tai and non-Tai speaking peoples of Thailand and couldn't come up with a match either. My first thought when i saw it was the native peoples of Taiwan (they had a big display in the airpart 2 months ago). Now I'm intrigued, pleae let us know what you find out.

16th January 2005, 04:16 AM	#13
cylord21 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Caracas - Venezuela Posts: 15	A possible motif match Found a match on one of the motif with the following description: " Elaborate Persian (Hamadan) wool rug, with two borders in cream and green framing a central red ground with medallions; mulitcolored stylized flowers all over ". Hope it is of help Attached Images

4th December 2011, 09:35 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	'05 Surprised me too mate . A good subject to resurrect I guess . Seems Ibrahiim has been rummaging through the basement .

3rd January 2005, 06:40 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I'm not sure, but it could be from Bhutan or Tibet. I agree that it doesn't look meso-American, but I'm not absolutely sure.

3rd January 2005, 06:45 PM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Is it double edge blade?

3rd January 2005, 07:28 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This commercial web site shows a lot of traditional textiles from various parts of SE Asia and environs. Maybe you can find a match there. Or send an e-mail to them and ask if they recognize it (they are very nice, and responsive). Tribal Trappings PS: Beautiful piece.

3rd January 2005, 07:58 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I agree with Mark's advice, Rick. Susan Stem at Tribal Trappings is extremely generous with her time and information. I was recently looking through some books in my library, and spent some time glancing at Burmese hill tribe textiles, some of which this resembles. I'll look closer tonight.

3rd January 2005, 11:35 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thanks all ! I have sent an inquiry to Tribal Trappings . I've already looked through Form and Splendor , and the Tilllmann Collection without much luck . No reason to apologize Jens .

4th January 2005, 03:26 AM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Rick, I think Susan may be able to help you. I can't find an exact match, but there are a number of tribes in Burma and Thailand that have very similar textile patterns in their traditional ensemble, including the Karen, Hmong and Lahu. Here are the two books I have that feature similar textiles: Paul and Elaine Lewis Peoples of the Golden Triangle: Six tribes in Thailand Thames and Hudson Ltd., UK, 1998 ISBN 0-500-97472-1 Richard K. Diran The Vanishing Tribes of Burma Amphoto Art, USA ISBN 0-8174-5559-0

4th January 2005, 05:16 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I CAN'T PIN IT DOWN FOR YOU AS I HAVE SEEN MANY SIMULAR DESIGNS OVER A WIDE AREA. IT DOES LOOK LIKE IT WAS MADE BY HAND USING A BACKSTRAP LOOM, WHICH IS USED BY MANY TRIBES EVEN TODAY. GOOD LUCK

16th January 2005, 09:00 AM	#14
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	That particular motif, resembling an eight- or four-pointed or petaled flower, is found all over the world, on many objects from weavings to weapons and jewelry, and even in sand paintings. It goes by many names, including 'the four directions' and is a basic shamanic symbol. Each direction can also stand for a particular state of conciousness or one of a number of steps on a spiritual path. The symbolism is extensive, and occupies whole chapters in various ethnographic books. Because of its geometric and archetypal character, it's very easy to generate from a loom; but it's so old that it's even found in petroglyphs.

17th January 2005, 05:19 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I think Jens brings up an extremely important note, all forms of iconography and material culture may carry key symbols and markings that could apply to those found on weapons. I have found the answers to some blade markings on coins and it is known that Berber textiles and jewelry often have similar motif as found on thier weapons. I'm really looking forward to finding out what this is!! Best regards, Jim

21st January 2005, 09:44 AM	#16
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello Rick, What you have here is bedouin weaving, Sadu. This was used in making tents, saddles, pillows and many other stuff. Just Google image search 'Sadu Weaving'.

4th December 2011, 09:28 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	A surprising and very fitting post Rick. In the societies of Maritime South East Asia, weaving is the female cultural balance to the weaponry and carving of the male side of society. Place the two together and you have a culturally balanced presence. Thank you for showing this.

5th December 2011, 04:28 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'm glad you're enjoying the archives Ibrahiim . Post away ! Maybe Alan will post some batiks etc. for us to admire .