Sudanese small shield with spear tip ?? on eBay

katana · 25th February 2012, 03:23 PM

This recently finished on eBay.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3208496613...84.m1438.l2649

Has anyone seen anything like this before ? Fantasy piece, ceremonial or battle ready piece ?

What do you think ?

Pictures added for future reference.

David

Sajen · 25th February 2012, 03:57 PM

Hello David,

never seen something like this before. Is it a tortoiseshell covered with leather? The patina at the handle seems to be great.

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 25th February 2012, 05:26 PM

I sure would like to see the critter that shell came from .

Sajen · 25th February 2012, 05:51 PM

On page 94/95 from the Benitez & Barbier book "Shields" is shown a shield from Sudan made from tortoise carapace.
Regards,

Detlef

colin henshaw · 25th February 2012, 06:42 PM

Hi

Its real enough - one of those unusual concoctions thrown up in the Mahdist period, most likely. I've seen a number....

katana · 25th February 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

never seen something like this before. Is it a tortoiseshell covered with leather? The patina at the handle seems to be great.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,
I believe leather covered turtle shell. Presumedly damp leather was fixed over the shell and as it dried, contracted tightly around it.
Thanks for posting the picture of the toitoise shelled example

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I sure would like to see the critter that shell came from .

I would imagine, probably less than the "critter" wanted to see the guy that thought 'you'd make a good shield'

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi

Its real enough - one of those unusual concoctions thrown up in the Mahdist period, most likely. I've seen a number....

Hi Colin,
thanks for the input. Price seemed excessive to me though.

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2012, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

On page 94/95 from the Benitez & Barbier book "Shields" is shown a shield from Sudan made from tortoise carapace.
Regards,

Detlef

Nicely done response Detlef!!! and with source, excellent match.
That is a great book on shields, which unfortunately I dont have, but it seems has the most comprehensive references on shields, and one of the few books on the topic.

Thanks for posting this David, something I had never seen before, another for the notes

All the best,
Jim

Sajen · 26th February 2012, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nicely done response Detlef!!! and with source, excellent match.
That is a great book on shields, which unfortunately I dont have, but it seems has the most comprehensive references on shields, and one of the few books on the topic.
All the best,
Jim

Thank you Jim. This book is a must-have for collectors of shields, a very good reference book of this topic.

Regards,

Detlef

Indianajones · 26th February 2012, 12:27 PM

Hi all, actually the 'ebay-shield' is from a kind of swampturtle (like a seaturle) that naturally has a skin covered boneshield; the shield from Detlef's book is the top of the turtleshield and the 'ebay-shield' is the bellyside of this same type of turtle.
They do only exist in those lakes/swamps in a particular area in East- Africa (dont know the specific details).
Most shields -which by most are not reckognised as such- the attached stick n bands are removed and sold as 'decorative turtleshield' as I have seen a few (like from the book). Also'ordinary turtleshield were used as shields sometimes.
So no skin has manually been drawn over the shield or like that. Hope this clears ONE detail about the <still quite interesting!> object

Cheers Wouter

Sajen · 26th February 2012, 02:12 PM

Wow, great input! After a closer look to the ebay shield, yes this is the bellyside of tortoise carapace.

Wouter, you are sure that it is the same kind of tortoise?

Regards,

Detlef

katana · 26th February 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Hi all, actually the 'ebay-shield' is from a kind of swampturtle (like a seaturle) that naturally has a skin covered boneshield; the shield from Detlef's book is the top of the turtleshield and the 'ebay-shield' is the bellyside of this same type of turtle.
They do only exist in those lakes/swamps in a particular area in East- Africa (dont know the specific details).
Most shields -which by most are not reckognised as such- the attached stick n bands are removed and sold as 'decorative turtleshield' as I have seen a few (like from the book). Also'ordinary turtleshield were used as shields sometimes.
So no skin has manually been drawn over the shield or like that. Hope this clears ONE detail about the <still quite interesting!> object

Cheers Wouter

Hi Wouter,
thanks for the info.....I did consider that the shell was the plastron (lower shell) .....but for one problem. The lower shell on all turtles are either flat or concave (males usually concave to help them stay on their 'lady' during mating.) As the scales are on the outside of the shell the one used as a shield is convex. A possibility is that the shell was 'shaped' by heat ....similar to the technique to shape horn ??

Best David

VANDOO · 27th February 2012, 01:33 AM

YOU ARE CORRECT IT IS TURTLE SHELL BACK AND BELLY. WE HAVE A SPECIES OF SOFTSHELL TURTLE HERE AND I HAVE EATEN ONE AND ARTICULATED ITS BONES. THE SIZE THEY GROW TO HERE IS 6 TO 30 INCHES (15 TO 76 CM. THE FEMALES BEING MUCH LARGER. THEY LIVE IN FRESH WATER MOSTLY RIVERS HERE AND ARE THE FASTEST TURTLE ON LAND ITS UNLIKELY YOU WILL BE FAST ENOUGH TO CATCH ONE BEFORE HE GETS TO THE WATER. MOST OF THE SHELL IS SOFT AND FLEXABLE WITH BONE AT THE CENTER. THE BELLY PLATE IS MADE UP OF FOUR LARGE BONES AND FLEXABLE NO DOUBT THAT HELPS THE THING RUN SO FAST AND FLATTEN OUT AND BURY ITSELF IN THE SAND. WE HAVE THREE SPECIES HERE IN NORTH AMERICA,THEY DO HAVE THEM IN AFRICA BUT I DON'T KNOW THE SIZE OR IF ITS THE SAME SPECIES.
I THINK THERE WAS A OLD POST ON A SHIELD SIMULAR TO THE SECOND ONE USING THE BACK PLATE.

Indianajones · 27th February 2012, 05:27 PM

Hi all, yes Sajen I think this is from the same kind of turtle (name 'turtle' is for the sea variant n 'tortoise' for the landvariant, am I right?).
The shield from the book could have had a more vulnerable edge round which has been removed, as there are ribs sticking out.
The shape is natural to my opinion. Have never put any energy into looking for the exact type of turtle it is; anyone . . ?!? (will see if have time to do so in a while.
Question remains . . . . .is it really a authentic used and made by which tribe??? Am curious too (I do think so myself, but what tribe)

Sajen · 27th February 2012, 06:49 PM

Hi Wouter,

only ask because the form is different, but I am also not an expert in this field of zoology. You are correct, when it is one which living in the water it is a turtle.

Regards,

Detlef

Alberto · 12th April 2012, 03:31 PM

Hello to you all from a "rookie"!
As I bought the shield after a serious deal and I have it in my hands I can confirm that it definitely made from the bellyside of a turtle carapace; it looks a sudanese/dinka item , as well as the nice short barbed spear with reptile (monitor?) skin .
I already had a sudanese shield made from the same stuff with a decorated metal rim and indo persian like buckles to hold the handle in place, forced in an "horizontal" shape but showing exactly the same natural pattern.
Best regards, Alberto

Iain · 12th April 2012, 10:40 PM

I hadn't noticed this thread before.

This older thread may be of interest: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2522

As well as this Dinka turtle amulet (complete turtle shell): http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/de...9.20.130_c.jpg

And this Dinka croc skin shield: http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/details/1979.20.116/

Indianajones · 16th April 2012, 12:52 PM

Hi, wel as I again noticed this thread I have just noticed such particular turtle shield used as an old souvenir-painting. This example is 32cm high.

It may require some 'carefull looking' to see its the same type of shield. See the ribbled surface and the dried remains of the skincovering. Lovely painting ahum ahum

isnt it?!

25th February 2012, 03:23 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sudanese small shield with spear tip ?? on eBay This recently finished on eBay..... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3208496613...84.m1438.l2649 Has anyone seen anything like this before ? Fantasy piece, ceremonial or battle ready piece ? What do you think ? Pictures added for future reference. David Attached Images

25th February 2012, 05:51 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	On page 94/95 from the Benitez & Barbier book "Shields" is shown a shield from Sudan made from tortoise carapace. Regards, Detlef Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 25th February 2012 at 06:04 PM.

27th February 2012, 01:33 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU ARE CORRECT IT IS TURTLE SHELL BACK AND BELLY. WE HAVE A SPECIES OF SOFTSHELL TURTLE HERE AND I HAVE EATEN ONE AND ARTICULATED ITS BONES. THE SIZE THEY GROW TO HERE IS 6 TO 30 INCHES (15 TO 76 CM. THE FEMALES BEING MUCH LARGER. THEY LIVE IN FRESH WATER MOSTLY RIVERS HERE AND ARE THE FASTEST TURTLE ON LAND ITS UNLIKELY YOU WILL BE FAST ENOUGH TO CATCH ONE BEFORE HE GETS TO THE WATER. MOST OF THE SHELL IS SOFT AND FLEXABLE WITH BONE AT THE CENTER. THE BELLY PLATE IS MADE UP OF FOUR LARGE BONES AND FLEXABLE NO DOUBT THAT HELPS THE THING RUN SO FAST AND FLATTEN OUT AND BURY ITSELF IN THE SAND. WE HAVE THREE SPECIES HERE IN NORTH AMERICA,THEY DO HAVE THEM IN AFRICA BUT I DON'T KNOW THE SIZE OR IF ITS THE SAME SPECIES. I THINK THERE WAS A OLD POST ON A SHIELD SIMULAR TO THE SECOND ONE USING THE BACK PLATE. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 27th February 2012 at 03:09 AM.

16th April 2012, 12:52 PM	#17
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi, wel as I again noticed this thread I have just noticed such particular turtle shield used as an old souvenir-painting. This example is 32cm high. It may require some 'carefull looking' to see its the same type of shield. See the ribbled surface and the dried remains of the skincovering. Lovely painting ahum ahum isnt it?! Attached Images

25th February 2012, 03:57 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Hello David, never seen something like this before. Is it a tortoiseshell covered with leather? The patina at the handle seems to be great. Regards, Detlef

25th February 2012, 05:26 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I sure would like to see the critter that shell came from .

25th February 2012, 06:42 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Its real enough - one of those unusual concoctions thrown up in the Mahdist period, most likely. I've seen a number....

26th February 2012, 12:27 PM	#9
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi all, actually the 'ebay-shield' is from a kind of swampturtle (like a seaturle) that naturally has a skin covered boneshield; the shield from Detlef's book is the top of the turtleshield and the 'ebay-shield' is the bellyside of this same type of turtle. They do only exist in those lakes/swamps in a particular area in East- Africa (dont know the specific details). Most shields -which by most are not reckognised as such- the attached stick n bands are removed and sold as 'decorative turtleshield' as I have seen a few (like from the book). Also'ordinary turtleshield were used as shields sometimes. So no skin has manually been drawn over the shield or like that. Hope this clears ONE detail about the <still quite interesting!> object Cheers Wouter

26th February 2012, 02:12 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Wow, great input! After a closer look to the ebay shield, yes this is the bellyside of tortoise carapace. Wouter, you are sure that it is the same kind of tortoise? Regards, Detlef

27th February 2012, 05:27 PM	#13
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi all, yes Sajen I think this is from the same kind of turtle (name 'turtle' is for the sea variant n 'tortoise' for the landvariant, am I right?). The shield from the book could have had a more vulnerable edge round which has been removed, as there are ribs sticking out. The shape is natural to my opinion. Have never put any energy into looking for the exact type of turtle it is; anyone . . ?!? (will see if have time to do so in a while. Question remains . . . . .is it really a authentic used and made by which tribe??? Am curious too (I do think so myself, but what tribe)

27th February 2012, 06:49 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Hi Wouter, only ask because the form is different, but I am also not an expert in this field of zoology. You are correct, when it is one which living in the water it is a turtle. Regards, Detlef

12th April 2012, 03:31 PM	#15
Alberto Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 2	Hello to you all from a "rookie"! As I bought the shield after a serious deal and I have it in my hands I can confirm that it definitely made from the bellyside of a turtle carapace; it looks a sudanese/dinka item , as well as the nice short barbed spear with reptile (monitor?) skin . I already had a sudanese shield made from the same stuff with a decorated metal rim and indo persian like buckles to hold the handle in place, forced in an "horizontal" shape but showing exactly the same natural pattern. Best regards, Alberto

12th April 2012, 10:40 PM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I hadn't noticed this thread before. This older thread may be of interest: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2522 As well as this Dinka turtle amulet (complete turtle shell): http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/de...9.20.130_c.jpg And this Dinka croc skin shield: http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/details/1979.20.116/