Definitive Warfare

Bill · 1st August 2006, 04:51 PM

Nice Kris, wish it were mine. Price went too high for me. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270011877643 In past posts I have speculated the curves in the blade (early kris) were for beheading the dead & wounded. I've posted an example & believe this is another sword that shows quite a bit of wear on the outer curves, suggesting it was used in a hacking/saw method to remove heads.

Rick · 1st August 2006, 05:08 PM

Ooh Baby !!
I can feel my net worth climbing !!

Wise move to step out of that one Bill .

Alam Shah · 1st August 2006, 05:26 PM

The rare beauty went wild... way pass my budget...

Fierce competition...

Ian · 1st August 2006, 06:25 PM

Hopefully this is not the future trend.

Yes, it is a nice older style of kris, with a beautiful blade. Guess someone just had to have it.

Anyone here get it?

Rick · 1st August 2006, 11:13 PM

Got a feeling it was Bill's friends Dave and Lonna .

Bill M · 1st August 2006, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Got a feeling it was Bill's friends Dave and Lonna .

Yeppers. They know quality.

Battara · 1st August 2006, 11:41 PM

Love the twistcore......still glad I didn't go for it.

LabanTayo · 3rd August 2006, 10:20 PM

love the twist core too.....
but too much dinero for my blood.

Bill M · 5th August 2006, 03:09 AM

Though they say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," I know Dave and Lonna well. They have an outstanding knowledge of Moro and Dayak weapons. If Dave wanted it this much, I assure you all that it is worth more.

My regret is that my bidding made them pay much more than if I had not bid.

Though I like the Moro and Dayak weapons, my main focus is elsewhere. But I still want a few exceptional Moro and Dayak pieces.

Willie W. · 5th August 2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

...They have an outstanding knowledge of Moro and Dayak weapons. If Dave wanted it this much, I assure you all that it is worth more.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Bill M · 5th August 2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

They have been collecting for many years. Museum quality pieces. I don't believe that you would consider them wealthy financially, but wealthy in terms of knowledge and absolutely in terms of friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Don't understand what you mean.

Rick · 5th August 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

nechesh · 5th August 2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

hhmmm...kinda curious about that one myself.

Willie W. · 6th August 2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

I did not know that i need a reason to be here, Rick. Thought it was an open forum to the public. I'm making comments as I see fit. Please read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 . If you don't like what I post, I believe there is an option where you can put me on your ignore list. And that goes to anyone else who feel my posts are not icky sweet. We're all adults here (I hope), and there's a certain kind of bias in this forum as we all know; so knowing that some people can get away asking the damnest question without getting banned/locked out, please do this: IGNORE MY POST!

So going back to your questions, Rick; are you assuming that I'm wisecracking ? Well, let me ask you this; is that how you percieve it? IMHO, I'm not. Am I annoyed with the collecting community? No, but I am tired of seeing the prices of these swords go up and everyone here act like it's OK. I know it's inivitable (sp), but a message to the price drivers, please don't pay that much for something you don't know squat, or just because it looks "pretty" to you. There are actually some people who collect it because it means more than an art object, that these artifacts are the bridges to someone's heritage, and with the prices going up at this rate, the future generation would never know.

Ian · 6th August 2006, 09:14 PM

Hi Willie:

You are, of course, free to express your opinions as freely as anyone else here. I think Rick was asking you the questions he did because your answers have been somewhat cryptic and it was unclear what you were getting at a few times. I don't think anyone was taking offense with you, just trying to clarify what you meant.

That said, I think you have answered Rick's question in that you do seem to have some issues with the collecting community for driving up prices on items that might otherwise be affordable to individuals within the original culture from which they came.

We have actually had similar discussions here in the past. One point that has come up repeatedly is that many of these heirloom items may never have survived at all were it not for the collecting community who have patiently maintained them for many years. We have often remarked that museums do not value edged weapons very highly unless they are of exceptional quality or historical significance. Even exceptional quality is not a high enough priority for many museums to spend large sums maintaining them in the condition they deserve. The collecting community actually does that, and more. So there are pluses and minuses to the way things have evolved.

If these items were valued as highly as you suggest within the host culture, I suspect some way would be found to repatriate them through a concerted buying back program, much as happened with Japanese swords. I'm not seeing that with Moro swords, which is a pity. Perhaps you could work on organizing such a program. Unfortunately, the market place has its own momentum, and there is not much anyone can do about that, much as we might like to.

Regards,

Ian.

ariel · 6th August 2006, 11:58 PM

I read his posts and smell a whiff of somebody else.... You know...

Bill M · 7th August 2006, 12:01 AM

Uh oh, do you mean that 'someone' who is not around anymore?

nechesh · 7th August 2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

So going back to your questions, Rick; are you assuming that I'm wisecracking ? Well, let me ask you this; is that how you percieve it? IMHO, I'm not. Am I annoyed with the collecting community? No, but I am tired of seeing the prices of these swords go up and everyone here act like it's OK. I know it's inivitable (sp), but a message to the price drivers, please don't pay that much for something you don't know squat, or just because it looks "pretty" to you. There are actually some people who collect it because it means more than an art object, that these artifacts are the bridges to someone's heritage, and with the prices going up at this rate, the future generation would never know.

Hey Willie, where on earth did you get the idea that "everyone here" is acting like these escalating prices are OK. Re-read the thread you linked and then re-read this one. Are the majority of responses really in favor of this super high prices?
I don't think Rick or anybody else is looking to shut out your words with the ignore feature (at least not yet

. Nobody is demanding that you need a reason to be here either. But you have made a number of allusions to knowledge that you have failed to follow through on. This forum is a place to share such knowledge. If you don't care to share that's OK too, but acting like you know something more and not backing it up doesn't hold much water on internet forums IMO.
You also make a rather broad assumption as to why various collectors collect these objects. I wouldn't begin to guess at why these folks Dave and Lorna collect Moro weapons. Likewise you haven't a clue as to my motivation to collect Indonesian keris. Why you collect is, of course, your business.
I truly believe that when Rick encourages you to "be candid" he means just that. But try actually saying something worthwhile and constructive with it. That's the trick.

Rick · 7th August 2006, 03:45 AM

Hi Willie ,
Thanks for spelling it out for me .
I take no offense at what you have said; I have no reason to .
As a matter of fact I agree with you on many points that you have made .
I just feel better if we speak plainly here; I'm not much of one to pick up on subtle innuendos; call me dense if you will but I prefer it when people speak plainly and openly.

Personally speaking I have all the Moro pieces I will ever collect; two budiak two kampilan, two barung and 5 krisses . I would love to see these pieces go back to the Bangsamoro after I pass ; I would really appreciate it if they went to further the study of the history of the Moro peoples; but how to effectively achieve that is my question.
Perhaps you can offer an answer.

My family is tied to Moro history; my last name is Bates .

Rick

nechesh · 7th August 2006, 04:09 AM

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

Rick · 7th August 2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

Yes , and Kenneth French Anderson who was a missionary on Mindanao during that time (he died there) . We may be Yankees but we do have relatives in the South .

Then there was Harrison Smith who did a fair amount of exploring in Borneo .

Flavio · 7th August 2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes , and Kenneth French Anderson who was a missionary on Mindanao during that time (he died there) . We may be Yankees but we do have relatives in the South .

Then there was Harrison Smith who did a fair amount of exploring in Borneo .

COOL!!!!!

Willie W. · 7th August 2006, 09:48 AM

Ian and Rick,

thank you for responding in such a mature fashion. Now I see where you two are coming from. Your respect towards your collection transcends what some, if not most, would refer to as an eye candy. I really hope that there are more collectors like you two who really respect these venerated objects.

As for your suggestion, Ian; it sure is a pity. I just hope that, if anything, the future generation will have access to what was once the pride and life of their ancestors.

And Rick, I've known for awhile your ties to my people

, and with that I respect you more that you'll ever know.

respectfully yours,

Willie

Willie W. · 8th August 2006, 07:36 PM

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

nechesh · 9th August 2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Sorry mate, i'm afraid when you post on an open forum your words (or lack there in) effect everyone. Couldn't care less who you were actually aiming at. I assure you, i am very relaxed and my advice to you really has nothing to do with muscle, just common sense. Nor does it have anything to do with you being the "new guy". I will be very interested in you words about Moro weapons and culture when you really have something to say beyonds vague hints and inuendo.

mross · 9th August 2006, 06:16 PM

Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won?

There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble.
The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords.
Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few?
Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay.

Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851
Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so

I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

MABAGANI · 9th August 2006, 11:03 PM

I don't buy the statements, twist cores were reserved for panglima or panglima were the right hand of the sultan...
If "twist cores" were reserved for panglima would everyone be a panglima who owned an early kris?
If panglima were the right hands, why did Panglima Hassan of the infamous Bagsak battle/massacre lead 10,000 followers to fight the US, against the plea of the Sultan?

Ian · 9th August 2006, 11:21 PM

Mabagani:

I had similar thoughts.

Willie W. has asserted that this twisted core style was reserved for Panglima, and that they were highly positioned men in the Sultan's employ. Do we have some documentary evidence for either of these assertions? I would like to see corroboration of Willie's views.

Mabagani, you have visited Moroland and spoken with locals. Does your skepticism reflect data contrary to what Willie has stated?

Maybe there was the occasional "rogue" Panglima who was willing to go against the wishes of a weak Sultan, or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite.

Ian.

MABAGANI · 10th August 2006, 03:55 AM

The assertion was more specific but without detail.
I'd ask, so which Sultanate? and era?
May not be the right forum if we're delving into politics.
I gave examples that contradict comments on the thread when some are accepting them as fact.

Willie W. · 10th August 2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Quote:

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Willie W.,

There is only one kind of "muscle" on this forum - the moderators. It is clear that you are familiar with the forum, its members, and, of course, the posting rules. You therefore should realize that you are skating on thin ice at the moment (unless it is your attention to provoke a ban). Rule #1 (or close to it, anyway): never rise to the bait. So, keep your posts on-topic and away from personal comments.

Regards,

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

1st August 2006, 05:08 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Out of Control Ooh Baby !! I can feel my net worth climbing !! Wise move to step out of that one Bill .

1st August 2006, 06:25 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Oh my ... Hopefully this is not the future trend. Yes, it is a nice older style of kris, with a beautiful blade. Guess someone just had to have it. Anyone here get it?

9th August 2006, 11:21 PM	#28
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Corroboration would be nice ... Mabagani: I had similar thoughts. Willie W. has asserted that this twisted core style was reserved for Panglima, and that they were highly positioned men in the Sultan's employ. Do we have some documentary evidence for either of these assertions? I would like to see corroboration of Willie's views. Mabagani, you have visited Moroland and spoken with locals. Does your skepticism reflect data contrary to what Willie has stated? Maybe there was the occasional "rogue" Panglima who was willing to go against the wishes of a weak Sultan, or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite. Ian.

1st August 2006, 04:51 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Definitive Warfare Nice Kris, wish it were mine. Price went too high for me. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270011877643 In past posts I have speculated the curves in the blade (early kris) were for beheading the dead & wounded. I've posted an example & believe this is another sword that shows quite a bit of wear on the outer curves, suggesting it was used in a hacking/saw method to remove heads.

1st August 2006, 05:26 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The rare beauty went wild... way pass my budget... Fierce competition...

1st August 2006, 11:13 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Got a feeling it was Bill's friends Dave and Lonna .

1st August 2006, 11:41 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Love the twistcore......still glad I didn't go for it.

3rd August 2006, 10:20 PM	#8
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	love the twist core too..... but too much dinero for my blood.

5th August 2006, 03:09 AM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Though they say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," I know Dave and Lonna well. They have an outstanding knowledge of Moro and Dayak weapons. If Dave wanted it this much, I assure you all that it is worth more. My regret is that my bidding made them pay much more than if I had not bid. Though I like the Moro and Dayak weapons, my main focus is elsewhere. But I still want a few exceptional Moro and Dayak pieces.

6th August 2006, 09:14 PM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Hi Willie: You are, of course, free to express your opinions as freely as anyone else here. I think Rick was asking you the questions he did because your answers have been somewhat cryptic and it was unclear what you were getting at a few times. I don't think anyone was taking offense with you, just trying to clarify what you meant. That said, I think you have answered Rick's question in that you do seem to have some issues with the collecting community for driving up prices on items that might otherwise be affordable to individuals within the original culture from which they came. We have actually had similar discussions here in the past. One point that has come up repeatedly is that many of these heirloom items may never have survived at all were it not for the collecting community who have patiently maintained them for many years. We have often remarked that museums do not value edged weapons very highly unless they are of exceptional quality or historical significance. Even exceptional quality is not a high enough priority for many museums to spend large sums maintaining them in the condition they deserve. The collecting community actually does that, and more. So there are pluses and minuses to the way things have evolved. If these items were valued as highly as you suggest within the host culture, I suspect some way would be found to repatriate them through a concerted buying back program, much as happened with Japanese swords. I'm not seeing that with Moro swords, which is a pity. Perhaps you could work on organizing such a program. Unfortunately, the market place has its own momentum, and there is not much anyone can do about that, much as we might like to. Regards, Ian.

6th August 2006, 11:58 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I read his posts and smell a whiff of somebody else.... You know...

7th August 2006, 12:01 AM	#17
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Uh oh, do you mean that 'someone' who is not around anymore?

7th August 2006, 03:45 AM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Willie , Thanks for spelling it out for me . I take no offense at what you have said; I have no reason to . As a matter of fact I agree with you on many points that you have made . I just feel better if we speak plainly here; I'm not much of one to pick up on subtle innuendos; call me dense if you will but I prefer it when people speak plainly and openly. Personally speaking I have all the Moro pieces I will ever collect; two budiak two kampilan, two barung and 5 krisses . I would love to see these pieces go back to the Bangsamoro after I pass ; I would really appreciate it if they went to further the study of the history of the Moro peoples; but how to effectively achieve that is my question. Perhaps you can offer an answer. My family is tied to Moro history; my last name is Bates . Rick

7th August 2006, 04:09 AM	#20
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

7th August 2006, 09:48 AM	#23
Willie W. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Ian and Rick, thank you for responding in such a mature fashion. Now I see where you two are coming from. Your respect towards your collection transcends what some, if not most, would refer to as an eye candy. I really hope that there are more collectors like you two who really respect these venerated objects. As for your suggestion, Ian; it sure is a pity. I just hope that, if anything, the future generation will have access to what was once the pride and life of their ancestors. And Rick, I've known for awhile your ties to my people , and with that I respect you more that you'll ever know. respectfully yours, Willie

8th August 2006, 07:36 PM	#24
Willie W. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Nechesh, You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

9th August 2006, 06:16 PM	#26
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won? There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble. The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords. Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few? Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay. Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

9th August 2006, 11:03 PM	#27
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I don't buy the statements, twist cores were reserved for panglima or panglima were the right hand of the sultan... If "twist cores" were reserved for panglima would everyone be a panglima who owned an early kris? If panglima were the right hands, why did Panglima Hassan of the infamous Bagsak battle/massacre lead 10,000 followers to fight the US, against the plea of the Sultan?

10th August 2006, 03:55 AM	#29
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	The assertion was more specific but without detail. I'd ask, so which Sultanate? and era? May not be the right forum if we're delving into politics. I gave examples that contradict comments on the thread when some are accepting them as fact.