keris for comment

[semar]

keris java

[David]

Semar, perhaps you could pose some questions when you post a keris. What would you like to know about this one? The more specific your questions, the likely you are to get a response.

[Marcokeris]

Very nice

[semar]

Originally Posted by semar

keris java

thank you David
ho can tel me more about this dapur and i think the tangu of this keris wil be pinggi ???????

reagars semar

[Jean]

Originally Posted by semar

thank you David
ho can tel me more about this dapur and i think the tangu of this keris wil be pinggi ???????

reagars semar

Hello Semar,
Your blade with 9 deep luk has the following ricikan: pejetan, tikel alis, sogokan, sraweyan, greneng, ganja dhungkul, and ada-ada? It does not match with any standard dapur from Central Java. The pamor pattern is Beras Wutah?
The style of the blade may be seen as Pengging because of the deep luks but this is not sufficient to attribute it to tangguh Pengging.
A nice blade anyway.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Pengging is a very, very scarce tangguh, not many people would ever have seen a keris of Pengging tangguh.

Yes, the luk in a Pengging keris are very steep, deep luk, but they are also very different to the luk in all other keris.

Personally, I cannot agree that the luk form of this keris is anything like the luk form of a Pengging keris.

I think perhaps that ganja kelap lintah might be a little closer to the mark?

One of the major distinguishing features of the Pengging style of keris is that it has a very long wadidang with a very deep curve, this results in a very long gulu meled. The blade cross section is rounded like rotan, the blumbangan is boto rubu.

I'm sorry, but to me, this keris does not even remotely resemble a Pengging keris.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the clarification about the features of Pengging blades.
Regarding the curved ganja, do you mean that it is specific to one tangguh? I am confused as I saw blades with such a ganja attributed to either tangguh Majapahit or Mataram, and it is often found on recent blades also.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, as usual Jean, there is a whole heap of stuff attached to this tangguh business that doesn't come through into broad understanding; I only gave a couple of the Pengging indicators, in fact, there are 13 that I have a note of.

I can see why you'd think that maybe this blade could bear some similarity to Pengging, and maybe that's what the maker was shooting for, because all he had to go on was the common description, but he'd never seen one either.

I've got one Pengging keris, and its just plain weird. I've only seen maybe one other --- I say "maybe" because I cannot remember if I've seen two that were attributed to Pengging, and if there was some sort of agreement that either were Pengging. In fact, the Pengging keris that I have is a very poor quality keris, but it does bear the salient features that permit it to be classified as Pengging.

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.

All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Pengging is an interesting classification, because it was never a kingdom, it was only maybe a kabupaten, it was set up by a noble from Majapahit, Adipati Handayaningrat, who was the grandfather of Sultan Hadiwijoyo of Pajang. This of course makes all the later rulers of Central Jawa, right through to today, descendants of Pengging (through the female line). The area even today has a strong spiritual element, it is located in Banyudono about 8 or 10 kilometers west of Adi Sumarmo airport. Interestingly Yosodipuro is buried there.

[semar]

hello mister Maisey

oke its not a keris from pengging like you say
can you tel me wich tangguh this keris can come from
and it is possibele to show the bald of penggi so we can get a idee


regards Semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Based upon what I believe I can see in the photograph I am of the opinion that this keris is tangguh Kemardikan.

I'm sorry, but I do not display photographs of my personal keris until such time as I may be prepared to sell.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.
All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Thank you Alan. According to Haryoguritno this style of curved ganja with 3 luk and curved kanyut is called Dhungkul (see Keris Jawa page 162) while the ganja Kelap Lintah is similar but with 5 luk, is it correct?
And thank you for your opinion that this kris is probably recently made although it looks old, I sensed it also but have not enough experience to be affirmative about it.
Regards

[semar]

thank you for the info of the dapur Jean
and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and
than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade
the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one
not new that what i can tel and what the tel me

Regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade.

Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position.

The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng.

Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way.

You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same.

Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same.


Now then, Mr. Semar.

I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us.

You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions.

Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions.

Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this?

We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so.

We do this because we try to assist the questioner.

But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions.

You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct.

But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time.

For what purpose may I ask?

For your own amusement?

To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll.

It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you.

[semar]

Mister Maisey

i not try to waist your time i try to get so much info as posibel and I not see the problem when i aske peopel i know here in jawa wat the think about a keris blad that i buy because the are have more expiriance than me thats to point

way i put this one the forum to laern more about the keris the first keris i put u make a comment this is a keris oke you wright and i think that solo keris is a good keris thank you

so exempel Jean say nice blad looks old and he tel me the name of the dapur
than you say no thats a kamadarikan blad( oja Jean say thats wat´t i think to how its posibel when its i the first a nice blade looks like a old blade is and not a kamadarikan blade but after you say he agree thats way I always try to aske so manny peopel as i know because the will say this and the other wil say that ( so I not see the problem of that every body like the keris and every body have his one viewe of thinking of this subject

and sorry i not wont effend you but you think i a Troll thats not nice but when its make you happy your welkom

mister maiey i believe that you know verry much about the keris but some time a simpel discussie more helpful than al long one you can dowt every thing ore make over every thing a discussie even the discussie over the celebes keris so long and you make it more difficult than its nesecery you aske quistoins you even not can aswer nobody can say for 100% thats a keris have all is origneel parts we dont know if the change ad a blad 100 years ago thats have be broke we not can see that any more
and sorry i think its strange when you have a keris thats rare that you not will show a picteur of that keris only when you like to sell so peopel can learn something with out much words only treu looking

so i apologies for my upion and the mistake with my bad engels I hoop i make my point of vieuw clear

semar ( the troll )

[David]

OK gentlemen, that's enough...
Let's keep this discussion on the keris and keep it civil.
Frankly Semar, i also think your keris is Kemardikan.True, that is an opinion based on photographs while you have the keris in hand. But i believe i see some definite clues in the erosion of this blade that this keris has been artificially aged.
I must admit that, like Alan, i also question the practice of throwing a keris up on the boards that you believe you already know about without any indication of what you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. You would be better off saying all you think you know about the keris up front. It would appear more honest, more transparent. But i have noticed this is a general posting pattern for you. "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and rarely do you say any more about your posted item. I believe that Alan was perhaps rash to refer to you as a "troll". I certainly do not believe this is so. But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple...
BTW, Alan's practice of not showing his personal keris on the forum is not that unusual, especially amongst the indigenous culture. I mostly adhere to the same principle (though i recently did post one of my new keris simply for complete lack of knowledge of the form). I will show a sheathed keris (always meant for public presentation as an object of dress), but usually choose not to show my blades. They are my children after all. Alan has been quite capable of imparting countless bits of valuable information about the keris and keris culture without having to violate his principle of not posting his keris in public places.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, do hope you will see fit to permit this response to Semar.

I have given considerable thought to his posts in this thread, and I am inclined to believe that although his pattern of communication may seem to be objectionable, it is not his nature that makes it so, but rather his difficulty with English.

Consider this:- it is very easy for you and me and a number of other regulars here to put up a question or a comment, but it is clear that for Semar this is not such an easy thing to do, so, instead of trying to say what he already knows, he goes on a fishing expedition.

I can understand this. I can use several languages, but I'm really only competent in one language apart from English, with the others, my writing would be on a par with Semar's English.

In short, I now feel that I was too hard on him, and that we all should be prepared to cut him a bit of slack. After all, he does make a considerable effort to take part in our discussions.

So Semar, please accept my apologies for the harsh manner in which I addressed you.

I would like to make a couple of additional minor comments.

For clarification:- I did not call you a Troll, what I said was this:-

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

There is a fine, but very important distinction between an accusation and a personal opinion in respect of a pattern of behaviour.

Yes, I agree with you that it is important to obtain as many opinions as possible about something when we wish to form a defensible opinion about said object, be it a keris or anything else.

However, when one has already obtained opinions from knowledgeable and experienced people, and when those opinions have been sufficient to permit one to form one's own opinion, it could be seen as somewhat contemptuous to seek a further opinion by presentation of extracted evidence (photographs) and in the absence of a presentation of the supporting evidence or argument that has permitted the formation of one's opinion, and then to reject that new opinion without a supporting argument.

As I have already said, I do not now believe that you intentionally set out to insult anybody, but I would most sincerely request you to in future post your queries as specific questions accompanied by whatever supporting evidence you may already have.

I am certain that if you follow this plan of action you will be much more successful in your increase of knowledge.

[semar]

hello David
I onley keris collector
"Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you
and yes thats the easy way for me because i not much of a expert in English writing i can speak it thats al and that i learn by my self So I have problems with the formulation of my questions and thats way i keep it simpel

and about you say (you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. ) i not agree with i acept what mister maisey but i tel him what other peopel say before maybe I'd have put it better to the point than tel it on my simpel way

so i hoop you understand it now a littel bite
so one last question But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... WHAT IS TROLLING

And mister maisey i wil try your advice if I can put it into the correct words


regards semar

[David]

Semar, i have send you a PM which will hopefully answer your questions.
Please continue if you will in this discussion on this keris.

[Henk]

Gentlemen,

On the end of the thread, i finally see the right conclussions. Semar is a serious collector who really wants to do one thing. Showing pictures of the keris he has collected and hoping we all enjoy the beauty of the keris.
As we all have an opinion about the item we collected, we all hope the opinion is true. Sometimes given by the seller or people in the neighbourhood of the seller. And maybe in the case of Semar, living on Java, getting opinions of neighbours and friends when he shows his latest aquisition.

Semar and that is obvious, has had no education in English language. Most of the Dutch people have had education in English language for several years on high school. But we also have a lot of Dutch people who have had not that education.

When i read what Semar has written i can clearly see, he is Dutch. I'm Dutch and with my knowledge of the English language i can understand what Semar means. Those for who English is the native language i'm sure they will understand maybe with some puzzling what he wrote. For those who have not English and Dutch as their native language i can understand they probably have difficulties to understand what Semar is writing.

I'm truly convinced Semar is not advertising, his only purpose is to let us enjoy the keris he is showing us.

While i'm writing this down i think in the English language. I'm able to do so because of my education in and use of the english language. And i'm aware my English isn't perfect. Please, don't ask me to write something down in French or Spanish. I simply cann't.

And please, do understand that some expressions are not understandable for a not native speaker.
A troll is, as far as i know, an evil forest ghost. With this knowledge i think, but i'm not sure, i can imagine what you mean.
For us calling somebody a troll, is an insult. Nothing else. Come to visit our country and call us a troll. Please tell me how many friends you made, but i think i'd better ask how you're doing now you may leave the hospital.

No hard feelings gentlemen, no offense at all. I understand you probably mean it in another way. But those who have problems with the English language or don't speak English at all won't understand it.

It is said before, we have many cultures on the forum here and a misunderstanding appears very easily as we have seen several times before.

The language is English on this forum and we all try to express ourselves in this language. But please let us all understand, especially for us members who have not English as our native language, that some expressions in another language mean something completely different and are not ment as an insult.

I wish every member on this forum, and his or hers beloved ones, from what culture you are, Peace, A merry Christmas and for later a prosperous and healthy new year.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, as the person who first used the word "troll" in this thread I believe it is my place to clarify both the meaning of the word in this context and the way in which I used it.

I will once again repeat what I said, because it seems clear to me that either what I have written is unclear, or people are simply not reading what I wrote.

This is important:- if something is written it is vital that the words written should be read and understood, the words written should not have meanings read into them, nor should they be interpreted in any other way than the way they are written.

For the third time, this is what I wrote:

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

At no time did call Semar a troll.

What I said was that his perceived behaviour was in my opinion dangerously close to the type of behaviour that one would expect of a Troll.

There is fine, but extremely important distinction between accusing a person of being a Troll and expressing one's personal opinion that a type of behaviour appears to be Troll-like.

The meaning of the word "troll" in the context in which I used it should not be understood in the way it would be understood in common English usage.

We are here engaged in an internet discussion Forum, and in this context the word "troll" should be understood as internet jargon, which as far as I am aware is universal.

In internet jargon a troll is a person who deliberately makes provocative statements in an attempt to ignite adverse or inflammatory reactions from others participating in the discussion.

I now understand and accept that Semar did not intend to act in this way, and that my perception was in error, but that perception was absolutely understandable when we take into consideration the fact that our opinions were sought in the absence of incomplete information that had already permitted Semar to form a concrete opinion.

I acknowledge that there can be considerable difficulties for non- native English speakers in a discussion group of this kind, and this becomes even more clear when I read the comments that my post # 13 have generated, I can count more that just one incidence of misunderstanding, or misinterpretation of what I have written. Whether these misunderstandings are genuine, or whether they are intentional I have no intention of even considering, but that they exist at all seems to indicate that a more careful reading of a written comment is essential, prior to rushing into print.

Incidentally, where the meaning of a word is unclear this can be very easily checked by using google, these days it is not even necessary in many instances to access a dictionary.

There is no shame in seeking clarification of the meaning of a word. I get paid for writing English, and even though I am a native English speaker and have had very long practice in my use of the language, I still regularly use a dictionary or thesaurus, or even consult Dr. Google when I am writing or reading.

[Henk]

Alan,

Thank you for your comment.

I wanted to make the misunderstanding clear. Actually not for myself. As a matter of fact, in the comment you wrote just to me you are completely right. Better, i could have written this by myself.

Please Alan, do understand that i highly appreciate you as a person, a fellow forum member and last but not least, for your skills.

Certainly you're right.
This is important:- if something is written it is vital that the words written should be read and understood, the words written should not have meanings read into them, nor should they be interpreted in any other way than the way they are written.


Maybe it is the wrong attitude but when i read the threads on the forum and i'm sure many members will do it in the same way, i read and look for pleasure, certainly willing to learn but not studying the comments on each character. But of course i read carefully so that i understand what is written about the presented item, perhaps missing some minor details.

For the third time, this is what I wrote:

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

At no time did call Semar a troll.

Yes Alan, I noticed you did. But when i translate it in dutch and adress it to a dutch person, not directly being aware of the internet jargon, and believe me, a lot of people are not known with internet jargon, it will be taken as an direct insult. Although you explained clearly what you ment and despite the fact above in the first quote, i must admitt that i frowned my eyebrows when i read it for the first time in post #13.

There is no shame in seeking clarification of the meaning of a word. I get paid for writing English, and even though I am a native English speaker and have had very long practice in my use of the language, I still regularly use a dictionary or thesaurus, or even consult Dr. Google when I am writing or reading.

Alan, when i'm writing also for my profession at school i do the same. When i read posts on the forum or articles that really litterally should be understood and concern me personally, yes, i study it very carefully.

I only wanted to make clear the intentions of Semar.
As we say here in Holland, we didn't all studied at the university and have a masterdegree.
When Semar would translate your writing with a dictionary or thesaurus in combination with google, it will cost him days work and even then you can ask yourself the question, is the translation readable and understandable as it was originally written? I doubt it.

When i put you in the same situation as Semar and i would send you a text in dutch, i would be very curious to your translation and your understanding of the text.
But you are well educated Alan, and that makes a difference.

Please, let us enjoy and study weapons and not spoil our time to these conversations.

I do appreciate you highly Alan.

Regards, Henk

[David]

Gentlemen...i had truly hoped we had put this little bump in the road to bed.
Please rest assured Henk, that this topic has been discussed through PM with both Alan and Semar by our moderation staff and, i had hoped, been resolved already. It is fine that you are feeling empathy for your countryman and feel the need to come to his defense in this matter, but i do hope that i have left the door open to Semar to have any further discussions with me if he felt this problem was not already fully resolved. I think Alan has already been clear that he regrets the use of the word "troll" and has fully explained what his intended usage of the word was to begin with and that it is an inaccurate application in this case. I have been in private discussion with Semar so i do not think it is necessary for you at this point to step in to make Semar's intentions clear. He has already done that. We have already come to the conclusion that this was a matter of miscommunication based upon Semar's lack of English skills. I have already commended him privately for his efforts to communicate here in English as i would personally be at a loss to do the same with him in Dutch.
That said, along with your opening statement here that "on the end of the thread, i finally see the right conclussions" can only lead us to your last statement, "Please, let us enjoy and study weapons and not spoil our time to these conversations." So please Henk, let's do just that...

[semar]

henk hello thank you for explaining
let's just forget the misunderstanding
let's just continue with our passion the keris
and let's hope we make fewer mistakes in the new year and I wish everyone a wonderful Christmas and a happy new year


greetings Semar

[David]

Same here Semar...btw, you have sent me two messages now with not actual writing in them (just my own statement in the quotes). Please let me know if you are having problems with the messaging system. Happy Holidays!

[semar]

i make a mistake again i want to say thank you for the info



thank you semar

[Henk]

David,

Clear. End of discussion. I will do what i said at the end. That is so much nicer.