LANDSKNECHT PIKE

[cornelistromp]

16th century landsknecht pike (spiess)

allover length 212cm
spurs 47cm
sock till gryphonhead 12cm
leaf/blade 12cmx5cm

[cornelistromp]

profos?

[fernando]

Hi Jasper,
Beautyful piece !
Why is this a pike and not a lance (spear) ?

[cornelistromp]

hi Fernando,

you may call it a pike a lance or a spear.

Lance is a catchall term for a variety of different pole weapons based on the spear. The name is derived from lancea, Roman auxiliaries' javelin, the word may be of Iberian origin. Also compare longche, a Greek term for lance.

A lance in the original sense is a light throwing spear, or javelin. The English verb to launch "fling, hurl, throw" is derived from the term (via Old French lancier), as well as the rarer or poetic to lance. The term from the 17th century came to refer specifically to spears not thrown, used for thrusting by heavy cavalry, and especially in jousting. A thrusting spear which is used by infantry is usually referred to as a pike.

Best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I have to agree with Fernando: this is a beautiful piece indeed. I, too, like Fernando, prefer calling it a lance (Spiess), length ca. 2,20-3,0 m.
'Pike', on the contrary, usually means a long lance (Langspieß), ca. 4,60 to 6.0 m overall in length.

Congratulations on your perfect historic documentation as well. Your Landsknecht Spiess is clearly of North Italian type, early 16th century and in perfect patina. The both zoomorphic and apotropaic monster's head first appears on the muzzles of cannon and then on Landsknecht arquebuses. As they clearly represent fire spitting dragons or sea monsters, I would not call them gryphons.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Thank you for the semanthics on the lance term, Jasper. Although not so thourouglhy as put by you, i was aware of the word's origin. Actualy the term currently used in portuguese is lança; i don't think we have a translation for spear.
Although currently speaking a lance may either be a throwing arm as also one to be hand held ... like both those of cavalry lancers and defence footmen.
However my question was more in line with Michl's observations; pikes (in portuguese piques) are in principle longer polearms, even considering their length variation through time and different people's customs.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael and Fernando,

beautiful barrels, thanks a lot for this extremely nice contribution
yes, I see, it is indeed a sea monster.
we can call it a spear however Jp Puype calls this type a small officers pike in his book "Maurits to Munster"

the condition of this spiess is excellent it still has the original pole and the yellow colour at the pictures are remains of the original fire gold plating.

do you know a similar example some-were
Best,

[fearn]

So far as I know, English at the moment is tending towards:

--Spear as a generic (basically, the handle is longer than the blade, and it's more for poking than for chopping, hooking, slicing, or other things)
--Javelin for a spear meant to be thrown
--Lance for a spear meant to be used on horseback
--Pike for a very long spear meant to be used in formation, although there's ample evidence that they were used individually as well.

Obviously these terms don't translate precisely into other languages, and that's fine with me. When in doubt, it's a spear.

Best,

F

[fernando]

Sure thing Jp Puype is a master and i am not even an amateur.
With such pole length and blade shape i would always though it was a lance.
Speaking of spiting dragons, here is a fascinating 1,45 mts. barrel from the 1500's, made in Goa, that i scanned from an old auction catalogue
The dragon eyes and nose are in silver; the nose works as a sight.

.

[M ELEY]

Very beautiful piece, indeed!

-Don't most lances have a butt-plate or counter-balance? I agree too long for a pike, but perhaps a spear?

I know most pikes had great lengths, but what about trench pikes and boarding pikes? Again, I am not suggesting this to be either of those, but classifying the weapon strictly on length might be a little risky.

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

Jasper, I do no keep any similar sample on hand, otherwise I would have posted it.

As to pikes:

The longest pikes known are those of ca. 1500 (the Maximilian era); very few are known to have survived in their original ca. 6 meter overall length as most of them were cut down to ca. 4.60 to 4.80 m as early as the 1520's, in the Peasant wars, and further during the 16th c. A new style of pikes' heads and hafts was created during the latest Renaissace for the infantry type of pikemen, in ca. 1580-1600, now measuring about ca. 4.0-4.50 in length. They were kept this way during the Thirty Years War (1618-58) after which they got considerably cut down to ca. 1.80-2.30 m and thus survived till the 18th c.

Their hafts usually consisted of ash wood, oak was extremely rare to find on the longest types and seems to have been preferred for halberds.

Please also see my thread How pikes/lances were made 500 years ago:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7123


Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

this is the closest I could find.
1540 italian "jagd spiess".

best,

[fernando]

Fantabulous

[Matchlock]

Superb piece indeed!

m

[Matchlock]

These engravings by Hans Burgkmair, 1516, for the Emperor Maximilian, range among the earliest depictions of organized troops of Landsknecht pikemen foot soldiers (Spiessknechte) in battle.

The earliest illustrations of such scenes are, as far as I remember, those by Diebold Schilling in both his Berne (1480) and Lucerne (1517) chronicles.

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Very interesting thread gentlemen

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi there,
As to pikes:

The longest pikes known are those of ca. 1500 (the Maximilian era); very few are known to have survived in their original ca. 6 meter overall length as most of them were cut down to ca. 4.60 to 4.80 m as early as the 1520's, in the Peasant wars, and further during the 16th c. A new style of pikes' heads and hafts was created during the latest Renaissace for the infantry type of pikemen, in ca. 1580-1600, now measuring about ca. 4.0-4.50 in length. They were kept this way during the Thirty Years War (1618-58) after which they got considerably cut down to ca. 1.80-2.30 m and thus survived till the 18th c.

A little OT but may I inquire Michael the following - would you happen to know the length of cavalry pole-arms (both "shock-type" lances and sweinspiess/boar spears) of German speaking horse in 15th and 16th century?

Furthermore what about the Swiss - did their Spiess/Pikes differ in length from those of Landsknechts or were they both around the same?

Cheers,
Samuel

[Multumesc]

Very beautiful pieces.

[Matchlock]

Hi Samik,


Hearing of you has become so rare - thank you!


To your queries:

Sadly I do not have any statistics on the original length of the pole arms you asked. We should go to Vienna and measure some fine and originally preserved Hapsburg pieces there - they won't do it for us!

When comparing the relative lengths of such arms in original Maximilian illustrations, though, both the pig and boar spears seem to have been significantly longer than their bearer in those days - which of course I realize is v e r y relative ...

As to Swiss and Austrian/Maximilian pikes / Langspiesse in the 15th and 16th century, they were considerably longer. In my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7123,

I quoted that the given length of the vessel for boiling the ash hafts for first-half to mid-16th c. Swiss infantry long pikes was 18 'Schuch' (ft). in 1554. We know that these raw anatomic stats greatly varied from country to country, and even from town to town, even as late the 18th century, when, e.g., a Prussian foot was 25.0 cm but a Saxon foot was 42.95 cm!

As I stated in my former post, we may safely assume that 15th/16th c. infantry long pikes/Langspiesse measured ca. 5 m in average. My two Hapsburg/Salzburg pikes from the mid-16th century measure 4.51 and 4.6 m respectively, and they may have been somewhat shortened. The longest pike I have ever measured, from the first half of the 61th c., is preserved in the Fortress of Coburg/Bavaria, and its lavishly knobbed ash haft is the original. This pike measures ca. 6 m in length! I will try and get images.


Sorry for not being able to more precise ...

Cheers, and best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

In virtually untouched condition, the original hafts of stained ash wood, the iron tips and straps retaining their original blueing.

Overall lengths 4.6 and 4.56 cm.

Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7123


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

From Albrecht Altdorfer's Der Greulich Sweyzer krieg (the gory Swiss War), from his illustrations of the Triumphal Procession for the Emperor Maximilian I.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The one on top of the wall rack.

Ca. 1500, the leaf shaped or so called frog's mouth blade of characteristic section, with pronounced central rib.
On its original octagonal ash haft, shortened to 2.78 m from originally probably 4.5-5.0 m.

From the Landeszeughaus Graz, Austria, the upper section of the haft bearing the inventory stamp of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, N.Y., from an inventory of ca. 1900.

Not one single of hundreds of pikes of this type still preserved in Graz retains its original octagonal haft; they were all restocked with round hafts around the middle or during the second half of the 16th c. Attached below is a scan of two pieces in Graz.

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Many thanks for the insight and knowledgeable reply Michael!
Apologies for me being more "rare" these days, but schoolwork does not permit me for a more active contribution.. nevertheless much obliged!

Cheers,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

In the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen.

m

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Samik

Many thanks for the insight and knowledgeable reply Michael!
Apologies for me being more "rare" these days, but schoolwork does not permit me for a more active contribution.. nevertheless much obliged!

Cheers,
Samuel

Thank you so much for you kind words, Samuel,

I know you well enough to be sure they are founded on well-based competence, so - thanks again!

Man, I do wish you and some other guys came in here more often - in spite of whatever your work is!

Cheers and best,
Michael