The Spanish Motto

[Jim McDougall]

Over the years this distinct motto has been discussed as it is ubiquitous on many 'Spanish' blades of the 18th century, usually it seems those of the hexagonal section, double edged, dragoon type. While these blades seem to have typically been seen on the M1728 cavalry swords which were the regulation pattern for Spain through the 18th century.


NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON
NO ME ENVAINES SIN HONOR

DO NOT DRAW ME WITHOUT REASON
NOR SHEATH ME WITHOUT HONOR

Aylward (1945, p.43) describes this aphorism (though in the French version, as they often used the 'motto' on blades as well)............as having been a perennial favorite...."since the Spaniards first invented it".

While the late RDC Evans, in his"The Plug Bayonet" (2002, #264, #265) states this motto seen on Spanish plug bayonets as early as 1650-70.
It seems odd to see this kind of motto on a bayonet.

Another apocryphal source claims that Fernando Jimenez de Quesada founding Bogota in 1538 was carrying a sword with these words on the blade.

So my question is......just how old is this motto, in these words, and was it
truly a Spanish convention?

[midelburgo]

The Spanish did not invent it. It can be found in Italian XVIth swords and possibly before that. Hoste (les Epees) has also French examples. I think I have not seen Spanish swords with it before 1650. The boastful meaning is not in the spirit of the previous period for Spain. Duels were very rare in Spain. Pious mottos, if any, were the norma.

In Spanish language, most of the blades sporting the motto were made in Germany. The most abundant ones, in Halbach, since 1770s, in Solingen previously. I do not know of Toledo blades with it.

[fernando]

Jim, remember this one ?

"The Knights Templars would swear never to draw their swords unless convinced of the justice of the cause in which they were engaged, nor sheathe it until their enemies were subdued. Many swords used in this tradition, especially those from Spain, often bore the following engraving: “No me saques sin razon. No me embaines sin honor,” meaning “Do not draw me without justice, do not sheath me without honor.”

[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... I do not know of Toledo blades with it.

Wouldn't this one be Spanish ? .

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wouldn't this one be Spanish ? .

The first one is from about 1660, blade possibly Italian. Toledo production by then was minimal.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando and Midelburgo, thank you so much!!! This detail is very important in something I am presently engaged in writing, and incredibly helpful. Fernando, yes I do remember the discussions we have had on this through the years, and frankly I was always amazed at how much information you always come up with.
Midelburgo, your knowledge on Spanish swords has always been well reflected in your remarkable posts, and bring insights that are far beyond the resources I have had at hand.

The entries you have both provided here put this important topic in perfect perspective.

[midelburgo]

First one I believe Solingen. About 1760. Toledo was starting again in 1762, with Toledo and date etched on the blade. Possibly they are the same blades as some of the ENRIQUE COEL ones (there are 3 types of ENRIQUE COEL blades in 1728s).

Then, 3 from Halbach. Third one with a Batavian republic hilt. 1775-1810? Many have Montmorency blades.

Mexican machete probably Halbach.

Then two Solingen, after 1820, one marked by Knecht as well. For the Soth American Republics market.

Last one, also Solingen about 1740, in two lines. Easy to mistake with the blades 100 years younger. Central channel is narrower.

I have five "no me saques", 3 from Halbach, one unclear, one from Solingen after 1820.

[midelburgo]

Why the first one is Solingen?

You saw the two groups of 4 points in lozenge?

Sometimes they are inside a square.

Check the spelling at the end of the two channels sword from 1760 (also a 1728). SOLIGE- Solingen. This is a not common not rare blade. I have one.

Now, the funny part is that many of these blades are marked as from Toledo (To). But Toledo did not make swords anymore in 1760!!

Fake mark for the third sword, and fake mark for the first sword in this post.

[Hotspur]

All amazing swords and information.

For a late date Jim, there is the Wade Hampton example
'Sword manufactured by Kraft, Goldschmidt, & Kraft with imported German blade.'
https://acwm.pastperfectonline.com/w...B-769009747542


Somewhat tangentially, is the curious questions we have about Jim
Bowie's portrait sword (pre Alamo).

Mexico used a lot of so inscribed blades well into the 19th century.

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

Knecht the younger was pretty much a distributor/producer. There are identical swords marked to Berger and generically exported. It makes me wonder if the above palasch was simply using up dad's blades.

Neat stuff.

[fernando]

I am completely devastated by Midelburgo's input. So much convinced i was that the NO ME SAQUES moto often appeared in Spanish blades; not only shown in blade illustrations but also in all kinds of articles and blogs out there.
Surprising also that the Toledo symbol (To) was also used to be faked.

https://ame1.org.es/no-me-saques-sin...nes-sin-honor/
https://apuntessobrelamarcha.wordpre...pada-espanola/
https://museodeavila.com/pieza/espada-de-concha/
https://swordsantiqueweapons.com/s245_full.html

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[fernando]

Amazing also that specialist Vicente Toledo calls it "Classic Spanish motto".Go figure !

[Jim McDougall]

It seems this aphorism has been around for centuries in various national contexts, and the reason for terming it the 'Spanish motto' is yet another 'collectors' chestnut arising from the fact it is phrased in Spanish. This seems derived from observations in Aylward (1945, "The Smallsword in England") where he shows the phrase in French noting its commonality on their blades. In this he notes the phrase has been a"'perennial favorite since the Spanish invented it".

It seems the phrase turning up on virtually any Spanish sword in the late 19th into early 20th century instantly identified it as a 'conquistadors sword' in the flowery writings of those times. As so often the case these kinds of romanticism carried into the colorful descriptions used by exuberant collectors of the time to enhance their examples.

I recall research into this many years ago, along with Juan Perez in Spain, and I too was stunned by the apparent fact that these blades were NOT from Toledo, as of course always assumed, but Solingen exports. While these were intended for Spains colonies in the Americas apparently, as they were so ubiquitous, especially in the United States, I have seen them turn up in any number of colonial situations from North Africa to India.

The notes on Knecht in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) became pretty much the final word on German production of blades bearing this motto.

The occurrence of these blades on Confederate swords, as noted by Glen, seems to derive from these blades circulating after the Mexican American war (1846) where many of these were captured by US officers from Mexican cavalry. I recall researching years ago one of General Custers swords (now in museum at Little Big Horn) that was claimed to have been taken by him from a Confederate officer in a 'running fight'. It had of course the so called 'Spanish motto' on the blade.

What is puzzling is this phrase turning up on plug bayonets, as it is clear its meaning refers to a sword worn to be used in combat or duel in a chivalrous sense. It seems oddly placed on a plug bayonet though these were typically later used as hunting knives, but the late Roger Evans ("The Plug Bayonet") claims the 'motto' occurs on their blades back to 17th c. Clearly it was simply used in a commemorative sense, much as perhaps 'Remember the Alamo' on Bowie knives.

On that note....Glen, what picture do you refer to with Jim Bowie's portrait sword?

While it is clear that this 'motto' appears on countless Mexican sword blades, many of them from old bilbos (M1728 regulation shell guard broadswords) and 18th century Spanish, many of them have bolder letters and as noted likely into 19th c. I had always thought that Toledo which was brought back into producing blades by Carlos III in the 1760s might have produced many blades with the 'motto' but it is unclear, and hard to differentiate between the Solingen products and what might have been select Toledo examples.

Many with the bold majescule lettering have the familiar cosmological sun and moon used popularly on Solingen blades added as embellishments. I wonder if Toledo might have simply added these the same as the Germans had spuriously used their markings for centuries? Sort of a 'turnabout is fair play' gesture

More of the conundrums and mysteries in studying the history of these weapons which make it such an adventure! While this is of course one of my usual wordy missives, I just wanted to share my own perspectives along with the great insights you guys have placed here.

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am completely devastated by Midelburgo's input. So much convinced i was that the NO ME SAQUES moto often appeared in Spanish blades; not only shown in blade illustrations but also in all kinds of articles and blogs out there.
Surprising also that the Toledo symbol (To) was also used to be faked.

https://ame1.org.es/no-me-saques-sin...nes-sin-honor/
https://apuntessobrelamarcha.wordpre...pada-espanola/
https://museodeavila.com/pieza/espada-de-concha/
https://swordsantiqueweapons.com/s245_full.html

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Nice. I said Toledo never made the motto. I see I was wrong and thank you for sparing me the search.

Maybe, until a piece appears I will say it stands for military pieces.

About the Halbachs. I think I have told before there is at Simancas Archive an advertise-bundle sent to the king of Spain in 1775 of several blades with etchings in real size cardboard. I have been finding those swords later in real steel. Those are the "halbachs".

Lets se if I find it... they are somewhere.

[Hotspur]

The mystery Bowie sword. Hilt but the rest of the sword is invisible
https://64parishes.org/entry-image/p...t-of-jim-bowie

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

The mystery Bowie sword. Hilt but the rest of the sword is invisible
https://64parishes.org/entry-image/p...t-of-jim-bowie

Well its an eagle head, but Glen, you'd be the one to say which type (Thurkle etc). I can only imagine that there must be examples that had Spanish motto blades. However, I think some Mexican swords had eagle heads as well, but offhand not sure of details. Bowie was after all a Mexican citizen by marraige, so possible, but this seems American.

Always curious why nobody has ever mentioned swords AT the Alamo.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well its an eagle head, but Glen, you'd be the one to say which type (Thurkle etc). I can only imagine that there must be examples that had Spanish motto blades. However, I think some Mexican swords had eagle heads as well, but offhand not sure of details. Bowie was after all a Mexican citizen by marraige, so possible, but this seems American.

Always curious why nobody has ever mentioned swords AT the Alamo.

Not many officers inside the Alamo. Travis was Texian militia (lawyer by trade) and then. Commissioned as an LC for a cavalry unit, then to The Alamo with army regulars. He likely had something along the lines of an Ames militia officer sword (but that dates badly) or a skinny eagle or Princess pommel, or plain old spadroon and would be from his earlier militia duties, rather than an 1833 dragoon. There is the legend of drawing a line in the sand. Hollywood likes a straight sword for Travis.

Cheers
GC

There were some 1st Empire eagles that might fit the portrait, as I had thought of the old LePage Foghorn Leghorn

[midelburgo]

Just some examples of the Halbachs 1775 cardboard real size trade samples, from the Simancas archives.
There are not "no me saques" mottoes among them but the blades are the same you can find with that motto. And the offering letter to king Charles III says he can choose whatever motto he wants.
The offer was rejected for the state owned weapons. But private buyers (officers) could buy them.
No doubt the offer was repeated from time to time, but only the one from 1775 has survived.

The kingdom of Two sicilies has similar pieces.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Glen. However, these were not circumstances in which guidelines or regulations were being followed overall, despite the fact that most of the men, regular citizens, were simply participating in a quasi military function.
While Travis had some sort of 'appointment' as an officer, like many of these ranks/titles were more 'honorary' than official.
As such, where officers typically had carte blanche as far as uniforms, and swords of course, he might have grabbed a sword from any number of forms that suited his 'fancy' (quite literally).

With this portrait of Bowie, it appears to be a silver hilt eagle head of the crested form, which like most of the earlier types of these were typically made in England and sold to US. This type crested eagle head seems to have been a type of pommel fashioned by Thomas Bate of Birmingham, but used by many of the cutlers there so might have been any number of these Birmingham makers.
These seem to be from the period c.1805 (Mowbray, 1988, p.96).

Inerestingly, an eagle head sword with Spanish motto blade was posted here last year, which with that being the case the sword was thought of course Mexican as they used the eagle element as well. The character of the sword suggests overall it is Mexican, perhaps later than the 1820 period (of the Bowie portrait) and of course the lack of knuckleguard. What is interesting is the character of the hilt, especially the crossguard which recalls the style of some Masonic skull and cross bones hilts. While Freemasonry was notably present in the US, it was as well in Mexico.

Returning to swords at the Alamo, while most of the defenders were civilian, the only 'military' there were essentially militia. The unit that Daniel Boone was with was comprised of a number of volunteers who were formed much as they had been during the War of 1812. In that same manner, the most noted unit at the Alamo were the New Orleans Greys (whose flag may have been actually the only flag flown there in the famed siege). This group was assembled in a meeting in an establishment in New Orleans where also was a storehouse of equipment left from the War of 1812. Many of the men were of course quite young and their fathers had fought in the War of 1812.

With young men, preparing for war, with the hubris and bravado, and recalling their fathers and their service in the earlier war, it seems possible as they outfitted themselves (even to the grey uniforms) that they might have taken swords....the Starr M1812 sabers made for dragoons and militias.
It is known that some of these were used in the 'Texas Revolution' so it seems possible some of these men might have had them at the Alamo as well.

As always, the presence of swords is absent from mention in the otherwise keenly detailed accounts and literature on the Alamo, the classic case of absence of evidence.

While a bit off track from the Spanish motto theme, and this eagle head is clearly not 'crested' as with Bowie's, the example with Spanish motto is of interest .

Just noticed Midelburgo's post...THANK YOU!
These large letters used for the Spanish motto along with the cosmological symbols popularly used on blades with Solingen origin suggesting the 'motto' was in use of course in latter 18th c. . Though rejected 'officially' by the Spanish court, these blades were solicited privately so available to cutlers not only in Spain and Mexico, but perhaps even in the US.
So does Bowie's sword have a Spanish motto blade? who knows" . ?

[Hotspur]

I have posted this in the past but there was never an overall shot. I have the old dealer listing through archive.org but it will take time to remember where. Oh yes, David Park. 'Relics of History'. Archived in my drives 2007-2008ish?.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090224.../weapons2.html


Very much an Ames silvered hilt made for Mexico (or use there) but with a typical refit pallasch blade. More photos at the link.

Cheers
GC